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Boeing 737 MAX+

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:06 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:The biggest pressure for Boeing to go ahead with the MAX without needing it’s pilots to recertifications on the 737, has to be Southwest Airlines who has the largest orders on the MAX. This was like a child telling the parent what to do. Totally unacceptable. Like all business, there are good days and not so good days with their finances. Sacrificing safety for profit will eventually bite them in the ass. The flying public is also part guilty as they want cheap tickets to fly, or demand on-time- performance even when not so safe to fly, or connections when they are so close to each other of arriving and departing aircrafts. I understand the pressures on the crew to make money for the company by trying to meet most of the customers demands because the management at times make schedules which looks good on paper, but not always in practice.



Customers don't demand those things tho... :roll:

I mean, I could demand a free upgrade to business class every trip but I wouldn't get it. :wink:

The fact is that airlines gain a competitive advantage by providing those things... Early pioneers like Laker realised there was a huge untapped market of people that couldn't afford normal ticket prices and introduced the concept of low-cost airline travel... The rest is history.

Flying is still the safest form of travel.

Surely, what has unravelled here is the cosy relationship which had developed between Boeing and the certification authorities which allowed a brand new aircraft to be waved through as an existing design...


So tell me, how many times do you see happy customers when the airfares rises overnight, or they have missed their connecting flights due to bad weather, delayed arrival planes, technical problems and have to wait until later in the day or the next day?Traveling public are one of the worse people to deal with by the airline employees on such occasions. The least money they pay, the more they want in return.

I was able to fly with Laker on a one way ticket to Chicago in 1979 fairly cheaply on my first trip to the USA, because at the time most major airlines were regulated by their governments on how much they could charge, so all the fares were the same for all the airlines for the same destinations. It was President Regan who did away with airlines in the USA being regulated and opened the market to be unregulated as far as ticket prices went. Since then many airlines formed and many shut down and many merged to become profitable. Airlines need to charge more for their tickets, but many people will not pay more, so the conundrum.


And what has that rambling rant got to do with anything...? :roll:

The market sets prices.

That is why prices rise when demand is high (school holidays, etc.)...


People are the market and the airlines comply to their demands! :roll:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby MR-from-NG » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:49 pm

9/11 has turned air travel into a living nightmare. It isn't anything I look forward to these days :evil:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:34 pm

Kikapu wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:The biggest pressure for Boeing to go ahead with the MAX without needing it’s pilots to recertifications on the 737, has to be Southwest Airlines who has the largest orders on the MAX. This was like a child telling the parent what to do. Totally unacceptable. Like all business, there are good days and not so good days with their finances. Sacrificing safety for profit will eventually bite them in the ass. The flying public is also part guilty as they want cheap tickets to fly, or demand on-time- performance even when not so safe to fly, or connections when they are so close to each other of arriving and departing aircrafts. I understand the pressures on the crew to make money for the company by trying to meet most of the customers demands because the management at times make schedules which looks good on paper, but not always in practice.



Customers don't demand those things tho... :roll:

I mean, I could demand a free upgrade to business class every trip but I wouldn't get it. :wink:

The fact is that airlines gain a competitive advantage by providing those things... Early pioneers like Laker realised there was a huge untapped market of people that couldn't afford normal ticket prices and introduced the concept of low-cost airline travel... The rest is history.

Flying is still the safest form of travel.

Surely, what has unravelled here is the cosy relationship which had developed between Boeing and the certification authorities which allowed a brand new aircraft to be waved through as an existing design...


So tell me, how many times do you see happy customers when the airfares rises overnight, or they have missed their connecting flights due to bad weather, delayed arrival planes, technical problems and have to wait until later in the day or the next day?Traveling public are one of the worse people to deal with by the airline employees on such occasions. The least money they pay, the more they want in return.

I was able to fly with Laker on a one way ticket to Chicago in 1979 fairly cheaply on my first trip to the USA, because at the time most major airlines were regulated by their governments on how much they could charge, so all the fares were the same for all the airlines for the same destinations. It was President Regan who did away with airlines in the USA being regulated and opened the market to be unregulated as far as ticket prices went. Since then many airlines formed and many shut down and many merged to become profitable. Airlines need to charge more for their tickets, but many people will not pay more, so the conundrum.


And what has that rambling rant got to do with anything...? :roll:

The market sets prices.

That is why prices rise when demand is high (school holidays, etc.)...


People are the market and the airlines comply to their demands! :roll:



Precisely... :roll:

Exactly what I said... So airlines can't simply increase prices because it suits their business plan (like you suggested) can they...?
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:21 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:The biggest pressure for Boeing to go ahead with the MAX without needing it’s pilots to recertifications on the 737, has to be Southwest Airlines who has the largest orders on the MAX. This was like a child telling the parent what to do. Totally unacceptable. Like all business, there are good days and not so good days with their finances. Sacrificing safety for profit will eventually bite them in the ass. The flying public is also part guilty as they want cheap tickets to fly, or demand on-time- performance even when not so safe to fly, or connections when they are so close to each other of arriving and departing aircrafts. I understand the pressures on the crew to make money for the company by trying to meet most of the customers demands because the management at times make schedules which looks good on paper, but not always in practice.



Customers don't demand those things tho... :roll:

I mean, I could demand a free upgrade to business class every trip but I wouldn't get it. :wink:

The fact is that airlines gain a competitive advantage by providing those things... Early pioneers like Laker realised there was a huge untapped market of people that couldn't afford normal ticket prices and introduced the concept of low-cost airline travel... The rest is history.

Flying is still the safest form of travel.

Surely, what has unravelled here is the cosy relationship which had developed between Boeing and the certification authorities which allowed a brand new aircraft to be waved through as an existing design...


So tell me, how many times do you see happy customers when the airfares rises overnight, or they have missed their connecting flights due to bad weather, delayed arrival planes, technical problems and have to wait until later in the day or the next day?Traveling public are one of the worse people to deal with by the airline employees on such occasions. The least money they pay, the more they want in return.

I was able to fly with Laker on a one way ticket to Chicago in 1979 fairly cheaply on my first trip to the USA, because at the time most major airlines were regulated by their governments on how much they could charge, so all the fares were the same for all the airlines for the same destinations. It was President Regan who did away with airlines in the USA being regulated and opened the market to be unregulated as far as ticket prices went. Since then many airlines formed and many shut down and many merged to become profitable. Airlines need to charge more for their tickets, but many people will not pay more, so the conundrum.


And what has that rambling rant got to do with anything...? :roll:

The market sets prices.

That is why prices rise when demand is high (school holidays, etc.)...


People are the market and the airlines comply to their demands! :roll:



Precisely... :roll:

Exactly what I said... So airlines can't simply increase prices because it suits their business plan (like you suggested) can they...?

You are very confused person in what you think I said me thinks. :D

Go and enjoy your Christmas dinner. :D
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:26 am

It was on the news tonight that Boeing has been taking a survey by phone around the world with potential passengers whether they would feel safe to fly on the 737 MAX again and the response was a 40% “NO” in October and a 40% “NO” in December. Considering most people would’t know the difference between a MAX plane and the Euro Tunnel train, 40% is quite a high number.

Also how airlines should handle passengers at the gate once they are aware that they would be flying on a MAX, is for the pilot to come and talk to the passenger(s) to assure them that it is safe to fly.

Looks like Paphitis will be doing a lot of talking with passengers at the gate who might refuse to board the plane. Expect lots of departure delays or even emergency landings if some passengers go crazy with panic attacks should the plane hit an air pocket and drop few hundred meters.

Looks like a long road to recovery for Boeing with the MAX, if ever!
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:47 am

Kikapu wrote:It was on the news tonight that Boeing has been taking a survey by phone around the world with potential passengers whether they would feel safe to fly on the 737 MAX again and the response was a 40% “NO” in October and a 40% “NO” in December. Considering most people would’t know the difference between a MAX plane and the Euro Tunnel train, 40% is quite a high number.

Also how airlines should handle passengers at the gate once they are aware that they would be flying on a MAX, is for the pilot to come and talk to the passenger(s) to assure them that it is safe to fly.

Looks like Paphitis will be doing a lot of talking with passengers at the gate who might refuse to board the plane. Expect lots of departure delays or even emergency landings if some passengers go crazy with panic attacks should the plane hit an air pocket and drop few hundred meters.

Looks like a long road to recovery for Boeing with the MAX, if ever!


Boeing Can't Fly Its 737 Max, but It's Ready to Sell Its Safety
Part of a presentation by Boeing to airlines with strategies to help win back the public’s trust for the 737 Max.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-cant- ... 40191.html
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:20 am

Kikapu wrote:The biggest pressure for Boeing to go ahead with the MAX without needing it’s pilots to recertifications on the 737, has to be Southwest Airlines who has the largest orders on the MAX. This was like a child telling the parent what to do. Totally unacceptable. Like all business, there are good days and not so good days with their finances. Sacrificing safety for profit will eventually bite them in the ass. The flying public is also part guilty as they want cheap tickets to fly, or demand on-time- performance even when not so safe to fly, or connections when they are so close to each other of arriving and departing aircrafts. I understand the pressures on the crew to make money for the company by trying to meet most of the customers demands because the management at times make schedules which looks good on paper, but not always in practice.


I don't know whether that is unacceptable or not. I think it is probably smart to consult customers in a business sense since they are the ones to buy the product.

It is very important to understand that no one would have had any clue that they would be sacrificing safety in any way. The power of hindsight.

very doubtful that Boeing or any of the other parties involved would deliberately compromise safety in any way.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:28 am

Kikapu wrote:It was on the news tonight that Boeing has been taking a survey by phone around the world with potential passengers whether they would feel safe to fly on the 737 MAX again and the response was a 40% “NO” in October and a 40% “NO” in December. Considering most people would’t know the difference between a MAX plane and the Euro Tunnel train, 40% is quite a high number.

Also how airlines should handle passengers at the gate once they are aware that they would be flying on a MAX, is for the pilot to come and talk to the passenger(s) to assure them that it is safe to fly.

Looks like Paphitis will be doing a lot of talking with passengers at the gate who might refuse to board the plane. Expect lots of departure delays or even emergency landings if some passengers go crazy with panic attacks should the plane hit an air pocket and drop few hundred meters.

Looks like a long road to recovery for Boeing with the MAX, if ever!


Yes and 99% of people will vote even though they are largely uninformed.

Those confidence rates will always increase as the MAX comes back into service and it won't take long.

Secondly, no pilot is going to be talking to passengers to get them to board. If they don't want to board it's their choice. Pilots are not social workers. Or even better, why buy a ticket knowing you are going to fly on a MAX to begin with.

The product will speak for itself when it comes back into service. The airlines know this. This isn't the first time such a thing has happened. When the Air France A330 went down off Rio, the same thing happened.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:01 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:It was on the news tonight that Boeing has been taking a survey by phone around the world with potential passengers whether they would feel safe to fly on the 737 MAX again and the response was a 40% “NO” in October and a 40% “NO” in December. Considering most people would’t know the difference between a MAX plane and the Euro Tunnel train, 40% is quite a high number.

Also how airlines should handle passengers at the gate once they are aware that they would be flying on a MAX, is for the pilot to come and talk to the passenger(s) to assure them that it is safe to fly.

Looks like Paphitis will be doing a lot of talking with passengers at the gate who might refuse to board the plane. Expect lots of departure delays or even emergency landings if some passengers go crazy with panic attacks should the plane hit an air pocket and drop few hundred meters.

Looks like a long road to recovery for Boeing with the MAX, if ever!


Yes and 99% of people will vote even though they are largely uninformed.

Those confidence rates will always increase as the MAX comes back into service and it won't take long.

Secondly, no pilot is going to be talking to passengers to get them to board. If they don't want to board it's their choice. Pilots are not social workers. Or even better, why buy a ticket knowing you are going to fly on a MAX to begin with.

The product will speak for itself when it comes back into service. The airlines know this. This isn't the first time such a thing has happened. When the Air France A330 went down off Rio, the same thing happened.

Not quite. It was known almost immediately after the crash even before the black boxes had been recovered that the pitot tube had frozen, so they were all changed right away without the A330 being grounded. Nothing can compare to the grounding of the MAX. Not even when the Comets were grounded way back.

Ironically, an MCAS system might have saved AF447.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:23 am

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