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Varosha to reopen?

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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:53 am

Sotos:
But we do consider ourselves Cypriot!! What differentiates us are things that we can't just choose to change, like our mother tongue and religion. The solution would be if those differences didn't matter. The reason they do matter is interests, or to put it better "perceived interests".

You say that people who want Brexit go against their interests. This is just your own conclusion. Their conclusion is that Brexit is something that serves their interests. This is why they choose it. If we had a crystal ball and we could see two alternative futures, one with Brexit and one without Brexit, and the one without Brexit was clearly better for the British people, then I assure you people would not choose Brexit.

In the 50s (and 60s for many) Greek Cypriots wanted enosis. Today very few want such thing. This didn't happen because Greek Cypriots changed their "Greekness" or "Cypriotness", it happened because Greek Cypriots changed their perception of what would serve their interests better. On the contrary Turkish Cypriots continue to pursue partition (in one form or another) because they believe that this best serves their interests.


...again well said.

AKEL has stirred the pot. Disy will have to find a Party that represents their values, northward, too, (before the next elections). National Parties are not demonstrating the capacity to represent their electorate as Cypriots, nor can they draw voters from those who are outright ''Greek", or "Turkish". National will come to mean Cypriot, because the electorate is there, (about half the population as it has been for decades).
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Humanist1 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:27 pm

Brexit and Cypriot Unification is different. Howeveryou do make a valid point in relation to Enosis. I think most Cypriots. in fact realise that Enosis was a wrong move and it becomes synonomous to Cyprus issue.

The point you make about TC’s pursue partition is very true.

However, in 2019 for a President in a Country that wants to pursue Unification talking about Helenism sends the wrong message and I think Cypriot Prime Minister need to steer away from these terms. If they want to acknowledge the relationship between Cyprus and Greece which based on protection mainly and trade, they cvan do it in a different way.

Personally when I came to Cyprus in 2007 I was disappointed to see the Greek flag flying next to Cyprus flag. It is time to let go of that if we are trully serious about Unification. That is not to say that TC threats to turn Varosha to a Las Vegas doesn’t help either.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:06 pm

Sotos wrote: You say that people who want Brexit go against their interests. This is just your own conclusion. Their conclusion is that Brexit is something that serves their interests. This is why they choose it. If we had a crystal ball and we could see two alternative futures, one with Brexit and one without Brexit, and the one without Brexit was clearly better for the British people, then I assure you people would not choose Brexit.


For me people often can do and will place 'ideology' ahead of what is in their best interests or regardless of those interests. Akin to people who refuse medical treatment that could save their or their children's lives for religious reasons. There is no doubt that for some that support Brexit it is a kind of mania akin to religious fervour. The idea that they have sat down and done a personal 'calculation' and decide exit is in their 'interest' is for me to just misunderstand the true nature of the reason why they support brexit. It is , for this section of Brexit supporters, essentially irrelevant as to if being in or out is better or worse for them. They will openly declare I want out even if it is worse for me.

(PS Humanist I sent you a Private Message but you appear to not have collected it yet. If when logged in you look at top right of forum page, should show a link there that will take you to the private message)
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Sotos » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:45 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: You say that people who want Brexit go against their interests. This is just your own conclusion. Their conclusion is that Brexit is something that serves their interests. This is why they choose it. If we had a crystal ball and we could see two alternative futures, one with Brexit and one without Brexit, and the one without Brexit was clearly better for the British people, then I assure you people would not choose Brexit.


For me people often can do and will place 'ideology' ahead of what is in their best interests or regardless of those interests. Akin to people who refuse medical treatment that could save their or their children's lives for religious reasons. There is no doubt that for some that support Brexit it is a kind of mania akin to religious fervour. The idea that they have sat down and done a personal 'calculation' and decide exit is in their 'interest' is for me to just misunderstand the true nature of the reason why they support brexit. It is , for this section of Brexit supporters, essentially irrelevant as to if being in or out is better or worse for them. They will openly declare I want out even if it is worse for me.


There are many people that can place the interests of their family higher than their own. There are few people that can place the interests of their country higher than their own. But those who would choose something for ideological reasons even if it goes against their own interests, the interests of their children, and the interests of their country, are insignificantly few. And remember, we are talking about "perceived interests", not necessarily actual interests. So those who refuse medical treatment that could save their or their children's lives for religious reasons, do so because they believe that doing so is for their best interests, e.g. the treatment might be considered a sin, which could result in them being in hell instead of paradise for an eternity!

Of course it also depends on what you value. For example for you what is important in judging what is better and what is worst might be only the standards of living and the prosperity of the British people. Somebody else in addition to the standards of living might also value seeing less foreign people in the streets and other factors which are not important for you. So if somebody declares "I want out even if it is worse for me" they probably mean "worst" from your point of view, not from their own. If they choose Brexit it means that for what they value the pros outweigh the cons, or so they currently think.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:54 am

Sotos wrote:There are many people that can place the interests of their family higher than their own. There are few people that can place the interests of their country higher than their own. But those who would choose something for ideological reasons even if it goes against their own interests, the interests of their children, and the interests of their country, are insignificantly few. And remember, we are talking about "perceived interests", not necessarily actual interests. So those who refuse medical treatment that could save their or their children's lives for religious reasons, do so because they believe that doing so is for their best interests, e.g. the treatment might be considered a sin, which could result in them being in hell instead of paradise for an eternity!

Of course it also depends on what you value. For example for you what is important in judging what is better and what is worst might be only the standards of living and the prosperity of the British people. Somebody else in addition to the standards of living might also value seeing less foreign people in the streets and other factors which are not important for you. So if somebody declares "I want out even if it is worse for me" they probably mean "worst" from your point of view, not from their own. If they choose Brexit it means that for what they value the pros outweigh the cons, or so they currently think.


I smoke. I am well aware that smoking is not in my 'best interests' yet I chose to do so anyway.

Might want to take a look at this

https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25426
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Sotos » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:58 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:There are many people that can place the interests of their family higher than their own. There are few people that can place the interests of their country higher than their own. But those who would choose something for ideological reasons even if it goes against their own interests, the interests of their children, and the interests of their country, are insignificantly few. And remember, we are talking about "perceived interests", not necessarily actual interests. So those who refuse medical treatment that could save their or their children's lives for religious reasons, do so because they believe that doing so is for their best interests, e.g. the treatment might be considered a sin, which could result in them being in hell instead of paradise for an eternity!

Of course it also depends on what you value. For example for you what is important in judging what is better and what is worst might be only the standards of living and the prosperity of the British people. Somebody else in addition to the standards of living might also value seeing less foreign people in the streets and other factors which are not important for you. So if somebody declares "I want out even if it is worse for me" they probably mean "worst" from your point of view, not from their own. If they choose Brexit it means that for what they value the pros outweigh the cons, or so they currently think.


I smoke. I am well aware that smoking is not in my 'best interests' yet I chose to do so anyway.

Might want to take a look at this

https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25426


Smoking is an addiction. When you first started smoking there was a reason you did it. For example somebody might start smoking to fit in with a group, or to be perceived as "cool", and those benefits could easily outweigh the perceived future health risks at the time the decision is made.

I didn't say that people are rational. This is why I clarified that I am talking about "perceived interests" which are not necessarily the same with "actual interests".
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Sotos wrote: I didn't say that people are rational. This is why I clarified that I am talking about "perceived interests" which are not necessarily the same with "actual interests".


A rational person will make decisions based on what they perceive to be in their best interest. To make a decision that is against those perceived best interests is not rational. The point I am making is that such irrational decision making , choice making, is not in fact rare or uncommon. It is in fact remarkably common. Did you read the link in the previous post ? This is one of the reasons why many economic models fail to model the real world accurately. They assume that people make choices rationally - that is they make them based on what they perceive is in their best interest. Yet there is mountains of evidence to show that this is not always the case. People make irrational choices - ones that they perceive are not in their best interest but they choose them none the less.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Sotos » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:46 pm

erolz66 wrote:People make irrational choices - ones that they perceive are not in their best interest but they choose them none the less.


I don't agree with this. People do not choose what they perceive is not in their best interest. They choose what they believe is in their best interests, even if it might not actually be.

For example you don't see people just falling off the edge of a tall buildings unless (1) they intentionally want to kill themselves because at that moment they believe that death is better for them than life, or (2) they miscalculated and fell by mistake. There is no case where somebody doesn't want to die but he still jumps from the roof of a skyscraper (unless he has some severe mental condition)

The "irrationality" comes from the fact that many choices aren't as intuitive as "you jump - you die" and other choices are so complicated and require so much prior knowledge on a great number of topics that it is close to impossible for he average individual to rationally come to any conclusion on their own.

What the article refers to is something different. It is about how economists used to think of individuals in a vacuum, while now they realize that they have to look at them as part of the society they exist.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Humanist1 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:07 pm

[Erolz wrote]"What does it mean to 'be Cypriot' ?[/quote] "

I think for me a Cypriot is somone who identifies as such. Someone who may live there and experience the daily life, participates in the society and their community. Reap the rewards and also pay their o fare share.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Lordo » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:14 pm

Humanist1 wrote:[Erolz wrote]"What does it mean to 'be Cypriot' ?
"

I think for me a Cypriot is somone who identifies as such. Someone who may live there and experience the daily life, participates in the society and their community. Reap the rewards and also pay their o fare share.[/quote]
are you really going to discard all those who have been ethnically clenased in the 60s and 70sby your friend makarios. you can take the boy out of cyprus but you cannpot take cyprus out of the boy. you are a cypriot because you are. you live and brathe her pain all the time and her heaven when ever you can.
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