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Varosha to reopen?

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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Humanist1 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:57 pm

It’s not.

The saddest thing is ... that it is mostly not good for TC’s.

Having said that to let them totally off the hook is to deny those TC’s who want reunification that their leadership does play a role. Keeping quiet is buying into Turkish occupation.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby erolz66 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:15 am

Maximus wrote:The conundrum is what comes first when you can’t have one without the other.


You can have have a Cypriot nation, a notion of commonality across all types of Cypriot, without a Cypriot state. I do not think you can have a Cypriot unitary state (than includes both TC and GC), that will be stable in the long term, without that notion of a Cypriot nation, that sense of commonality across all types of Cypriot that we chose to place ahead and above of those commonalities we have with people who are not Cypriot (Turks, Greeks or anyone else) . That is what I am trying to suggest.

You seem to believe (and if I am wrong I apologize) that

had the 1960 independence been for a simple unitary state from the 'start' and ignoring that had that been the case then enosis would have followed soon after, then we would have developed the notion of Cypriot nation necessary. That the reason why we did not do so was because we had a 'flawed' constitution imposed on us. My suggestion is that this 'analysis' is actually confusing what was cause and what was effect. I am suggesting we ended up with flawed constitution because we had not created a notion of commonality across Cypriot communities rather than we did not create a notion of commonality because we had a flawed constitution. I think (any time I say think you can replace it with suggest if you prefer) even had we had a unitary constitution in 60 then such a state would still have failed because we did not (first) have a notion of commonality. Likewise I think / suggest that had we had such a notion in 1960 but still had the flawed 60's constitution we did end up with then things would not have deteriorated in the way they did / have.

Maximus wrote:Simply because we are talking about manufacturing a common Cypriot identity between, two separate groups of people.


It seems (and again if I have misunderstood you I apologise) that you think I am suggesting that we need to 'manufacture' a 'false' common identity that does not actually exist in reality. This is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that there is a real commonality across Cypriot that exits and always has existed and that (for understandable reasons in that time) we chose not to recognise this commonality and put it at the front of our 'plans' for a post colonial Cyprus. That really it is a matter of 'choice' (and thus why be the change you want to see is the mantra). That just because we made those choice then for reasons that applied then that does not mean we can not make a different choice now. I have so much more that I want to say about this real commonality but I will try and do that in a reply to Humanist and not in this reply.

Maximus wrote:How to go from where Cyprus is today to a United cyprus? I will try and keep it simple. Reverse the invasion and occupation as much as possible, Dismantle the trnc. Those that are Cypriot stay, Those that are not Cypriot, go to turkey.No need to complicate it but we know this is not the agenda of turkey or the tc leadership.


Even if we ignore that this approach has just not worked for decades now, that the TC community has not chosen to just do these things, that you offer no suggestion as to why they would do so now when they have not for decades, and assume that somehow the TC community does just decide to do and accept the 'solution' you suggest, I am suggesting that if this were to happen without us (a majority of us) choosing to believe we have more in common with each other than we do with people who are not Cypriots, then such is still doomed to fail because we have not also chosen to place our common Cypriotness ahead of our Greekness or Turkishness or anything else ness.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby erolz66 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:44 pm

Humanist1 wrote: I have not heard a standing President to talk about Helenism.


This took about 2 minutes to find , 1.5 minutes of which was me trying to work out how to spell anastasiades, though really I do not want to get bog down on this.

https://presidency.gov.cy/en/cyprus/201 ... al-palace/

Humanist1 wrote: I live in Australia and I have an accent. I am 51years of age and i arived in Australia as a 12 year old in 1981. My mother lost her brother in the war he was 17 years of age when he went to war. I constantly have to state that I am Australian to those people who ask me where I come from, despite that I have worked since the age of 15 years and completed my university studies and have worked as a social worker for the last 30 year and keep paying my taxes..


I will be 53 years old in 9 days time. I was born in the UK to a TC father and British mother and lived in the UK for the first 36 years of my life and have been living in Cyprus for the last 17 years or so. My Aunt (my father's sister) lost her husband in 1964 (10 years before the partition of Cyprus) when he went, against the 'separatist' TC leaderships advice to not mingle with GC, to his job as deputy bank manger of Barclays Bank. He was taken from his place of work in broad day light in front of other staff and customers by an illegal ethnic based armed militia and 'disappeared'. His body was eventually found at the bottom of a well in Ayia Napa in mid 2000's by the CMP. To my shame I still only speak english. When I lived in the UK there were those who consider me a foreigner, just as there are today some Cypriots who do likewise.

Humanist1 wrote:Cyprus is now for me the place I was born I cannot say I am Cypriot because I don’t know what that means.


This for me is the core question we need to answer if we are to find a way to a better future for all Cypriots than what we have achieved to date. What does it mean to 'be Cypriot' ? Answering the question is intimately linked to the real commonality that exits between GC and TC and other kinds of Cypriots that I am suggesting is a pre requist to achieve a stable unitary Cyprus but that we chose (for understandable reasons then) to not recognise and reject since the prospect of the end of colonial rule became increasingly imminent. I do not claim to have a universal hard definitive answer but I have some thoughts on this question and as I say I think answering it is at the core of trying to find a solution. So ..

What does it mean to 'be Cypriot'.

At the first level it is to do with 'place', with the unique location that is the Island of Cyprus. I do not mean that if you live in Cyprus that means you are 'Cypriot'. What I mean is that this place, this island, it's uniqueness, the mountains, the climate, the sea, the plains - they shape and change and 'cypriotize' anything that is in the place for long enough. Not just 'people' but flora and fauna. The myriad of orchids that are unique to Cyprus came at one time to Cyprus by some means and when they arrived they were not unique, but over time, over generation after generation, Cyprus, the place, Cypriotize them in to something unique to Cyprus. Donkeys are not a native Cypriot species, they are an introduced species, but we do not talk of donkeys in Cyprus we talk today of Cypriot donkeys. There is today a uniqueness to Cypriot donkeys that is not found in donkeys shaped and formed over generation by the uniqueness of some other place. So too with people. I believe that if overnight you were to transpose the population of Cyprus with say the population in Iceland that slowly over generations but surely and inevitably those Icelander's living here would become 'more Cypriot' and 'less Icelandic' just as those Cypriots now in Iceland would become generation after generation more 'Icelandic' and less 'Cypriot'. How each population live, what they eat, how they work and how they play, how they speak, how they drive and park and a myriad other aspects of either what being 'Icelandic' or 'Cypriot' means would be changed and shaped and molded by this place we call Cyprus. This 'power' of Cyprus, the place, to shape and mold and change and 'Cypriotise' flora, fauna and people is strong. It is 'unbeatable'. All it needs is time. If you (or a plant or an animal) is in Cyprus long enough, then Cyprus will in the end 'have you', it will 'Cypriotise' you. This then is for me the first 'level' of commonality, real commonality not 'manufactured' commonality that GC and TC share and that binds us together as Cypriots, despite us not sharing language or religion. We only need to chose to recognize and prioritize this commonality we have we each that we do not have with others that are not 'of Cyprus' but do share language and or religion with us.

The next 'level' for me is as follows. You could have a Cyprus where all of the above is true but where you have only GC (or TC) in Cyprus or in a given part of Cyprus where that community would still be 'Cypriotised' by power of the place that is Cyprus. The power of Cyprus to Cypriotise those who live there long enough does not in and of itself lead to a stable unitary Cyprus. Some have and do , in the face of the frustration of our collective failure to date, suggest that such a separation is the way forward. That we agree separation, that the TRNC trades giving back land for recognition and we live separately in our respective areas. For me this would represent a 'loss' and I am not yet ready to give up on trying to find a better solution that does not represent such a 'loss'.

For me the 'Cypriotness' that I cherish, that I consider would be a loss if it did exist, that I am not ready to give up on and that I will struggle for, take risks for is as follows. I chose to believe that a Cypriotness that does not included TC (or GC) is a 'lesser' Cypriotness than one that does. That it would represent a 'loss' to the world if such a kind of Cypriotness did not exists. Not because such a form of 'Cypriotness' is 'better' than other forms of 'Cypriotness' or better than Greekness or Turkishness or any other ness but because it represents something unique. To try and explain that better I lament the loss to the world of say the dodo, not because the dodo is better than say an albatross but because it is unique and now only exists in memory.

Thus to try and summarize my definition of 'Cypriotness' , the one I chose to believe in, it is as follows

That unique blend of Greekness, of Greek culture and language blended with a portion of Turkishness, of Turkish culture and language combined with a smattering of other 'ingredients' that all combines and merges over time and generations under the power of the place that is Cyprus to shape and mold and change and that ends up with something unique and special that is not and can not be found any where else. Not in Turkey. Not in Greece. Not anywhere else. This is the kind of Cypriotness that I cherish and would struggle and strive for against any power and any force. My kind of 'Cypriotness' requires that it has GC in it and TC in it (and and and) that all mix and blend together, sharing aspects of each's individual cultures, languages, foods and that creates something uniquely Cypriot.

It is also the kind of 'Cypriotness' I think a majority need to chose to believe in if we want a united Cyprus. Unitary structures alone if we chose to not believe in this kind of Cypriotness, one that by (chosen) definition includes and must include both GC and TC and other elements, but in other kinds of 'Cypriotness', I think can only lead to a repeat of past failures.

Fuck me that was hard to put down in text and the above still does not explain the notions I have in my head as well as I would like but I have done my best with the abilities and time at my disposal.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Londonrake » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:27 pm

If an “outsider” may offer a humble comment? That was a very moving post.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:21 pm

...indeed, smell the dust. We are blessed with its rich History, as Cypriots, this island.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Sotos » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:33 pm

There are many multi-ethnic countries, and in many occasions members of an ethnic group can feel closer to people of their own ethnicity in another country, rather than their own compatriots. This is not unique to Cyprus and it is not necessarily a problem nor it precludes the existence of a unitary state.

Would there be conflict between Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus if there were no Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus? Obviously not. You are half English, born and raised in the UK, and from what I understand you don't really speak Turkish and you aren't Muslim either. So you aren't really Turkish! So if we were all like you there would be no Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus and therefore no conflict between Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus! But in reality there are Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus, and it is not so simple as to say "be the change you want to see" for matters of personal identity. To use an extreme example, it is like advising a gay person to "be straight" as a solution to the discrimination he faces. If he could be straight all his problems would indeed be solved, but this is a bullshit advice because a gay person can't just choose to be straight.

What we can do is make that personal identity irrelevant. So you can be Greek or Turkish or Christian or Muslim if those are parts of your identity, but those things not to matter in any way when it comes to the state. And the obstacle for this happening are interests.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:14 pm

...well said Sotos.

...there is no going back, we can recognise that this division as it is, is senseless. We are Individuals, and we are Persons. It is our diversity as such which make for a rich culture which has survived subjugation for thousands of years, yet now struggles, to be Free.

"Being" a Cypriot has nothing to do with race, ethnic origin, or religion. It has to do with conviction, (and birth).

...there is "Turkishness", in this case keeping in waste a vital part of a Heritence that goes back thousands of years, from its proper stewards, where, being a "Turk" is to be no better than a "Greek", i ask, are these efforts (from the occupation regime) changed?

...and what is the Cypriot way, without being facilitators of exchange, to be self sustaining cooperators. Cypriots are not chattel. They are neither "this" or "that", they are above all Individuals. And to expect it to be any other way is folly, whether (as you say), as Persons, they are Gay, Atheist, Anarchist, or Turkish, or Greek, this is natural. It may have its political complexities, beyond the Individual, and as an ethnosphere, a recognition of this need for self representation as constituencies, i agree. This is the State i am fighting for, the Republic of Cyprus, a People who can demonstrate their conviction to the Universal Principals they have committed themselves to respect and to recognise, as members of the UN and the EU, reforming their Constitution so that it better reaffirms these convictions.

...the truth is, the Communal Chamber must open, where Greeks may represent themselves as Greeks. And it is in the Constitution itself, as Cypriots, (finding as Communities there can be Unanimity, if it meant that the superior level of government, with this guidance, filled its seats, with the same intentions, as Cypriots, to reform themselves) Peace is found(ed).

...direct action is what has to be done. Cyprus, the Flag of Cyprus, as a center of support toward each other, is the means to draw attention to this fact, that Cypriots exist. Those against such a notion by their own acts, expose themselves accordingly if Cypriots are not silent/silenced.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby erolz66 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:49 pm

Sotos wrote:There are many multi-ethnic countries, and in many occasions members of an ethnic group can feel closer to people of their own ethnicity in another country, rather than their own compatriots. This is not unique to Cyprus and it is not necessarily a problem nor it precludes the existence of a unitary state.


Examples ? Examples of a stable country without inter-communal strife where there are significant ethnic groups, that consider they have more in common with people that are not of that country than they do with those of that country that do not share their ethnic group.

Sotos wrote: You are half English, born and raised in the UK, and from what I understand you don't really speak Turkish and you aren't Muslim either. So you aren't really Turkish!


I am not Turkish. I have never considered myself Turkish. I have never called myself Turkish. That is nothing to do with the fact I do not speak Turkish nor do I deny I am Turkish because I think there is anything wrong with being Turkish, I only do so because I just do not happen to be Turkish. I am however Cypriot. I happen to a Cypriot that is part of the cultural Turkish 'ingredient' that goes in to making that wonderous and unique thing that is 'Cypriot' but I am Cypriot. No one, no state, no authority can tell me I am not Cypriot.

I do not like the term 'half British' - I do not consider myself 'half' British. I am wholly British and the wonder is as well as as that I am also more than just wholly British as well. I am British plus not minus British. That only one of my parents was themselves British and that I have spent only half my life in Britain do not in any way stop me being anything other than wholly British.

Sotos wrote:So if we were all like you there would be no Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus and therefore no conflict between Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus! But in reality there are Greek and Turkish people in Cyprus, and it is not so simple as to say "be the change you want to see" for matters of personal identity. To use an extreme example, it is like advising a gay person to "be straight" as a solution to the discrimination he faces. If he could be straight all his problems would indeed be solved, but this is a bullshit advice because a gay person can't just choose to be straight.


What are you Sotos ? A Greek who lives in Cyprus. Or a Cypriot that considers themselves to be part of the culturally Greek ingredient that is the biggest single ingredient that goes in to making this wonderous thing that is called Cypriot ? The choice literally is yours. You can chose which you consider you are, in exactly the way that you can not chose your sexuality. And the most amazing thing is that should you choose to consider yourself the latter it does not require you to change the Greekness in you one iota. You can chose the latter and not 'lose' anything compared with the choosing the former. It is all gain and no loss. You can be wholly Greek - plus a bit more besides. That is in fact a pretty neat description of what my kind of 'Cypriotness' means. To be Cypriot means to be Greek plus, to be Turkish plus. If you do not believe that you can make such a choice, then test that theory. As an experiment why not try it for a day. Try choosing to consider yourself not just Greek who lives in Cyprus, but Greek plus.

At the end of the day if a majority of Cypriots want to choose to be a Greeks that live in Cyprus and Turks that live in Cyprus and that want to deny that wonderous mix of the two (and other ingredients) and reject the 'plus' then let's stop fucking around and start negotiating the terms for an agreed partition. I reject such myself.

Sotos wrote:What we can do is make that personal identity irrelevant. So you can be Greek or Turkish or Christian or Muslim if those are parts of your identity, but those things not to matter in any way when it comes to the state.


By definition (at least the one I referred to) what a nation is ,

is a group of people who share common cultural characteristics, typically including language, heritage, religion and world views. This is a cultural distinction and not a political one. For example, "Raider Nation" is a group of people who share a high level of support for the American football team, the Oakland Raiders.


A single unitary state made up of multiple and exclusive nations could in theory exist but if such does exist you will have to name them for me. There has to be a commonality across all those within a single nation for it to be a nation and just all living and wanting to live on a give bit of rock is not enough to count as that, this is even more so in the case of Cyprus where we do not share language (though in reality we do, in the sense that you will know and use terms and expressions that vast numbers of Greek would not understand but that every Cypriot would) or a religion. So what is there that can represent this commonality other than the choice to believe that what you get if you take 80% Greek and 18% Turk and 2% other and mix them all up and bake them over generations in the place that is Cyprus to create something that is synergistic, more than just Greek, more than just Turkish, more than just the sum of it's component parts - the thing that I define as 'Cypriot' ?

Sotos wrote: And the obstacle for this happening are interests.


So mechanical Sotos. So Newtonian. So, the universe is just a great big clockwork mechanism. The world, the universe is more than this - as quantum mechanics continue to show with every increase in our understanding. People individually and in groups do, often, chose to want things that are clear not in their own best interest (just look at Brexit).

But aside from that, should you (and enough other Cypriots) choose to want to consider themselves Cypriot (Greek plus, Turkish plus) then their interests would be for a unitary Cypriot nation, state and nation-state. That is the point.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Sotos » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:24 am

Examples ? Examples of a stable country without inter-communal strife where there are significant ethnic groups, that consider they have more in common with people that are not of that country than they do with those of that country that do not share their ethnic group.


It depends on what you mean by "significant ethnic groups". If we are talking about % then the most significant is maybe Russians in Latvia (over 25%). I am not saying that this is never a problem, I am saying that it is not necessarily always problem nor it precludes the existence of a unitary state.

What are you Sotos ? A Greek who lives in Cyprus. Or a Cypriot that considers themselves to be part of the culturally Greek ingredient that is the biggest single ingredient that goes in to making this wonderous thing that is called Cypriot ? The choice literally is yours. You can chose which you consider you are, in exactly the way that you can not chose your sexuality. And the most amazing thing is that should you choose to consider yourself the latter it does not require you to change the Greekness in you one iota. You can chose the latter and not 'lose' anything compared with the choosing the former. It is all gain and no loss. You can be wholly Greek - plus a bit more besides. That is in fact a pretty neat description of what my kind of 'Cypriotness' means. To be Cypriot means to be Greek plus, to be Turkish plus. If you do not believe that you can make such a choice, then test that theory. As an experiment why not try it for a day. Try choosing to consider yourself not just Greek who lives in Cyprus, but Greek plus.


What you say is actually how it is. Nobody is just some generic form of Greek or Turk. Every Greek and every Turkish person is "Greek plus" and Turkish plus". And there is no question that as Cypriots we have a lot in common, but we also have some differences.

At the end of the day if a majority of Cypriots want to choose to be a Greeks that live in Cyprus and Turks that live in Cyprus and that want to deny that wonderous mix of the two (and other ingredients) and reject the 'plus' then let's stop fucking around and start negotiating the terms for an agreed partition. I reject such myself.


The main problem with partition is that it can not be achieved without ethnic cleansing and even if we were to voluntarily agree to separate agreeing on how is difficult.

Sotos wrote:What we can do is make that personal identity irrelevant. So you can be Greek or Turkish or Christian or Muslim if those are parts of your identity, but those things not to matter in any way when it comes to the state.


By definition (at least the one I referred to) what a nation is ,

is a group of people who share common cultural characteristics, typically including language, heritage, religion and world views. This is a cultural distinction and not a political one. For example, "Raider Nation" is a group of people who share a high level of support for the American football team, the Oakland Raiders.


A single unitary state made up of multiple and exclusive nations could in theory exist but if such does exist you will have to name them for me. There has to be a commonality across all those within a single nation for it to be a nation and just all living and wanting to live on a give bit of rock is not enough to count as that, this is even more so in the case of Cyprus where we do not share language (though in reality we do, in the sense that you will know and use terms and expressions that vast numbers of Greek would not understand but that every Cypriot would) or a religion. So what is there that can represent this commonality other than the choice to believe that what you get if you take 80% Greek and 18% Turk and 2% other and mix them all up and bake them over generations in the place that is Cyprus to create something that is synergistic, more than just Greek, more than just Turkish, more than just the sum of it's component parts - the thing that I define as 'Cypriot' ?

Sotos wrote: And the obstacle for this happening are interests.


So mechanical Sotos. So Newtonian. So, the universe is just a great big clockwork mechanism. The world, the universe is more than this - as quantum mechanics continue to show with every increase in our understanding. People individually and in groups do, often, chose to want things that are clear not in their own best interest (just look at Brexit).

But aside from that, should you (and enough other Cypriots) choose to want to consider themselves Cypriot (Greek plus, Turkish plus) then their interests would be for a unitary Cypriot nation, state and nation-state. That is the point.


But we do consider ourselves Cypriot!! What differentiates us are things that we can't just choose to change, like our mother tongue and religion. The solution would be if those differences didn't matter. The reason they do matter is interests, or to put it better "perceived interests".

You say that people who want Brexit go against their interests. This is just your own conclusion. Their conclusion is that Brexit is something that serves their interests. This is why they choose it. If we had a crystal ball and we could see two alternative futures, one with Brexit and one without Brexit, and the one without Brexit was clearly better for the British people, then I assure you people would not choose Brexit.

In the 50s (and 60s for many) Greek Cypriots wanted enosis. Today very few want such thing. This didn't happen because Greek Cypriots changed their "Greekness" or "Cypriotness", it happened because Greek Cypriots changed their perception of what would serve their interests better. On the contrary Turkish Cypriots continue to pursue partition (in one form or another) because they believe that this best serves their interests.
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Re: Varosha to reopen?

Postby Humanist1 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:45 am

Hello Erolz

Like you i switched off at the first sentence referring to Cypriot helenism. I am sorry you had to read that. Obviously Cyriot politicians have not learnt a lesson in the last 45 years. And aren’t really serious to undertake a unification of the Country.
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