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Land of the free

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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:52 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Now imagine, Turkey in the EU. Why would Britain or anyone else want to stay in the EU and get flooded?


Why do you say imagine Turkey is in the EU ? According to those Brexit extremists you so admire Turkey is already in the EU in all but name.

Paphitis wrote:And what would happen to Cyprus?


According to those Brexit extremists you so admire Turkey is already in the EU in all but name. They do not claim Turkey is in the EU in all but name as an opinion, they claim it as an indisputable fact.

Paphitis wrote:MPs had their vote like everyone else and could have voted to remain as is their right to do so. But their vote counts the same as anyone else. Just because they are MPs does not mean they have extra power over the man on the street. It's 1 man and its 1 equally weighted vote. MPs are employed by the man on the street to represent them in Parliament.

In fact, all MPs have a moral duty to execute the will and the mandate of the people as they voted in the referendum. You can't just change the goal posts now because you don't like the result. that is Peshenvengi style BAZAAR democracy like what you find in places like Turkey.


When there are multiple ways for the UK to not be in the EU, to claim that the one way YOU do not want the UK to be in the EU is democratic will of the people is a gross abuse of word democracy.

There are two ways a decision can be said to have democratic legitimacy in the UK. Either the people vote directly on a given issue or their elected representatives do. To claim that because people voted to leave but not how we should leave, your personal preference of how you want to leave is the democratic will of all those who voted to leave is a gross abuse of the word democracy.

There is a mandate to leave. There is NOT a mandate to leave in a singular specific way. To take the first mandate and claim it is a mandate for the second thing is an abuse of democracy.


Why do you call them extremists?

the people were given an opportunity to vote on whether they wanted to be a part of the EU, and the majority voted for BREXIT. Why do you call these people extremists for exercising their democratic will?

Britons are 100% correct to be wary of Turkey and its cosy relationship with the EU and I for one am warning my Cypriot Patriots that eventually their EU membership will most certainly be their destruction and that is WHY I support BREXIT. One of the reasons why anyway as their are many reasons.

The day will come where there will be MANY EU members that will want to leave which is why BREXIT is important. In many ways, Britain is the pioneer. We as EU members need to look at how Britain is being treated and we need to take notes.

Once the EU has taken control, it's almost a total capitulation and surrender of our country.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:12 pm

Paphitis wrote:Why do you call them extremists.

the people were given an opportunity to vote on whether they wanted to be a part of the EU, and the majority voted for BREXIT. Why do you call these people extremists for exercising their democratic will?


There is nothing extreme about having voted to leave the EU. I have never called someone extreme just because they voted that way. What is extreme is to claim that the mandate to leave can not be met by TM's withdrawal deal with EU, can not be met by us leaving the EU and remaining in a customs union, can not be met by use leaving the EU and remaining in a single market with the EU and can only be met by their personal preference as to how the UK leaves, that does NOT have majority support of MP's or the people. That is what is extreme. That is what is a perversion of democracy.

Paphitis wrote:Once the EU has taken control, it's almost a total capitulation and surrender of our country.


When the UK as an EU member went to the EU and said 'the mechanism and rules for calculating the UK's contribution to the budget, that the UK democratically elected government had signed up to, were unfair to the UK, what happened ? Was the UK able to get the other sovereign member states to agree a rebate for the UK or not ?

When the majority of EU member states wanted to form a single currency but the UK did not want to be part of such what happened ? Did the all powerful EU force the UK to accept the majority will of member states or leave the EU ?

When the majority of members states wanted to set up schengen but the UK did not want to part of such what happened ? Did the all powerful EU force the UK to accept the majority will of member states or leave the EU ?
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:16 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Why do you call them extremists.

the people were given an opportunity to vote on whether they wanted to be a part of the EU, and the majority voted for BREXIT. Why do you call these people extremists for exercising their democratic will?


There is nothing extreme about having voted to leave the EU. I have never called someone extreme just because they voted that way. What is extreme is to claim that the mandate to leave can not be met by TM's withdrawal deal with EU, can not be met by us leaving the EU and remaining in a customs union, can not be met by use leaving the EU and remaining in a single market with the EU and can only be met by their personal preference as to how the UK leaves, that does NOT have majority support of MP's or the people. That is what is extreme. That is what is a perversion of democracy.

Paphitis wrote:Once the EU has taken control, it's almost a total capitulation and surrender of our country.


When the UK as an EU member went to the EU and said 'the mechanism and rules for calculating the UK's contribution to the budget, that the UK democratically elected government had signed up to, were unfair to the UK, what happened ? Was the UK able to get the other sovereign member states to agree a rebate for the UK or not ?

When the majority of EU member states wanted to form a single currency but the UK did not want to be part of such what happened ? Did the all powerful EU force the UK to accept the majority will of member states or leave the EU ?

When the majority of members states wanted to set up schengen but the UK did not want to part of such what happened ? Did the all powerful EU force the UK to accept the majority will of member states or leave the EU ?


BREXIT is definitely a mandate whether there is a Free Trade deal or not.

That is to say, if the EU want to play hard ball, then bring it on baby. It will be a HARD BREXIT!

What Britain can't afford to do is say to the EU oh well we will only BREXIT if we have a FTD. What do you think the response to that will be? Might as well bend over and take it. it's completely laughable and disgraceful!

No way hose! BREXIT was voted for and is a foregone conclusion and if the EU insist on a NO DEAL then so be it. How long do you think they can maintain that nonsense and risk German manufacturing Jobs?
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Maximus » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:22 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:Unfortunately, there is no perfect system,

But what the Greeks invented many moons ago is probably the best system there is.


Actually no. Democracy isn't perfect and it is extremely fragile too.

The most workable system is Dictatorship.

But Democracy is clearly better for the people. And some countries like Britain are very good at it. Russia, not so good at all.


So why do you support the toppling of Dictatorship governments. Selectively I might add.

Russia is more Authoritarian with some of the trappings of democracy, but lets say they move to a full blown dictatorship.

Why would you then have a problem that they have chosen the most workable system of governance?

We can go further with the EU. why would you want any member state to leave if the EU moves closer to a more workable system such as dictatorship.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:27 pm

Maximus wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:Unfortunately, there is no perfect system,

But what the Greeks invented many moons ago is probably the best system there is.


Actually no. Democracy isn't perfect and it is extremely fragile too.

The most workable system is Dictatorship.

But Democracy is clearly better for the people. And some countries like Britain are very good at it. Russia, not so good at all.


So why do you support the toppling of Dictatorship governments. Selectively I might add.

Russia is more Authoritarian with some of the trappings of democracy, but lets say they move to a full blown dictatorship.

Why would you then have a problem that they have chosen the most workable system of governance?

We can go further with the EU. why would you want any member state to leave if the EU moves closer to a more workable system such as dictatorship.


i don't support the toppling of all Dictatorships.

I am fine with some of them. for instance, i am quite ok and comfortable for instance with The United Arab Emirates.

And I wouldn't normally be ok with the toppling of any dictatorship other than heavily contested regimes such as the Assad Regime in favour of a national liberty council of shia and sunni representatives as part of a peace settlement.

Other than that, the vast majority of countries are Dictatorships and totalitarian and that's fine by me as long as there is no bloodshed on the streets.

It's completely stupid to think you can enforce democracy everywhere. :roll:

To answer your question. No, i couldn't give a stuff what Russia does. They can go full on nutso if they want. Couldn't care less. but let's not pretend that they are a beacon of democracy because there are nothing of the sort even now.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:53 pm

Paphitis wrote:BREXIT is definitely a mandate whether there is a Free Trade deal or not.


The mandate is to leave the EU. You can be not in the EU and still be in a customs union with it (turkey). You can be not in the EU and still be in single market with it (Norway). You can be not in the EU and have a limited free trade agreement that covers some things and not others (Canada). You can be not in the EU and have no trade deals with it other than WTO ones.

When you take the mandate to leave and claim it can only be met by leaving in the one specific way you personally like and claim that one singular way is what the mandate was for, you are trying to pervert democracy and it makes you in my book and 'extreme leaver'. If you voted leave and accept that how we leave should also be subject to what the majority wants you are a democrat. If you voted leave and claim that how we should leave must be the way you want, even though that way does not have majority support of MPs or the population at large, you are not a democrat. You are an 'extreme leaver' in my view.

Paphitis wrote:That is to say, if the EU want to play hard ball, then bring it on baby. It will be a HARD BREXIT!


You macho bullshit approach to international relations still fails to impress me.

Paphitis wrote:No way hose! BREXIT was voted for and is a foregone conclusion and if the EU insist on a NO DEAL then so be it.


The EU HAS offered a deal for the UK to exit the EU, not stay in the customs union or single market. That is the deal the UK parliament has reject 3 times. The EU has always been clear that it was prepared to offer a deal for the UK to leave the EU and remain in the customs but we have so far rejected such an option. The EU has always been clear that it was prepared to offer a deal for the UK to exit the EU and remain in the single market but we have so far rejected such a deal. The simple fact is there is one party here who has reject all options other than no deal and that party is not the EU.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:57 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:BREXIT is definitely a mandate whether there is a Free Trade deal or not.


The mandate is to leave the EU. You can be not in the EU and still be in a customs union with it (turkey). You can be not in the EU and still be in single market with it (Norway). You can be not in the EU and have a limited free trade agreement that covers some things and not others (Canada). You can be not in the EU and have no trade deals with it other than WTO ones.

When you take the mandate to leave and claim it can only be met by leaving in the one specific way you personally like and claim that one singular way is what the mandate was for, you are trying to pervert democracy and it makes you in my book and 'extreme leaver'. If you voted leave and accept that how we leave should also be subject to what the majority wants you are a democrat. If you voted leave and claim that how we should leave must be the way you want, even though that way does not have majority support of MPs or the population at large, you are not a democrat. You are an 'extreme leaver' in my view.

Paphitis wrote:That is to say, if the EU want to play hard ball, then bring it on baby. It will be a HARD BREXIT!


You macho bullshit approach to international relations still fails to impress me.

Paphitis wrote:No way hose! BREXIT was voted for and is a foregone conclusion and if the EU insist on a NO DEAL then so be it.


The EU HAS offered a deal for the UK to exit the EU, not stay in the customs union or single market. That is the deal the UK parliament has reject 3 times. The EU has always been clear that it was prepared to offer a deal for the UK to leave the EU and remain in the customs but we have so far rejected such an option. The EU has always been clear that it was prepared to offer a deal for the UK to exit the EU and remain in the single market but we have so far rejected such a deal. The simple fact is there is one party here who has reject all options other than no deal and that party is not the EU.


Sure you can leave the EU and have a FTD.

Britain can leave and Britain can discuss this with the EU post BREXIT. Britain wants a FTD. No problem there.

Macho bullshit is coming from the EU, not from Britain. In fact, Britain under Theresa May really stuffed up the negotiations completely by ruling out NO DEAL BREXIT.

So, to circumvent all the macho talk, Britain can BREXIT and the rest can be negotiated AFTERWARDS if that is how the EU want to play it. What won't be stopped is BREXIT by using this leverage as a means to scupper and derail BREXIT.

BJ should be commended for demonstrating common sense!
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:01 pm

Paphitis wrote:In fact, Britain under Theresa May really stuffed up the negotiations completely by ruling out NO DEAL BREXIT.


It was Parliament that ruled out a no deal exit on the 29th March. Are you saying that you could or should just ignore the democratic will of Parliament if you do not like the result ? Is that what you are saying Paphitis ?
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:10 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:In fact, Britain under Theresa May really stuffed up the negotiations completely by ruling out NO DEAL BREXIT.


It was Parliament that ruled out a no deal exit on the 29th March. Are you saying that you could or should just ignore the democratic will of Parliament if you do not like the result ? Is that what you are saying Paphitis ?


Parliament doesn't have the right to do such a thing.

I question their motives because this has undermined Britain's negotiations as well.

The parliament has a duty to represent people, and their wishes. Parliament is out of line.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:59 pm

Paphitis wrote:Parliament doesn't have the right to do such a thing.


So we see your true commitment to UK democracy. Parliament is only sovereign when it does things you like. It's sovereignty is dependent on if you approve or not. Parliament had the legal right to do this, the moral right to do and it did it. It is likely to do it again. Parliament would have a legal right to stop Brexit but not a moral one, without a new mandate from the people to do so but it did not do that. It stopped a specific form of leaving the EU, that is the most possible damaging form of exit, for the UK, the EU and the global economy to boot.

Paphitis wrote:I question their motives because this has undermined Britain's negotiations as well.


So the democratically arrived decision of a democratically elected Parliament is only 'legitimate' if you do not questions the motives of the democratically elected MP's. This is your idea of democracy is it ?

Paphitis wrote:The parliament has a duty to represent people, and their wishes. Parliament is out of line.


So who should be representing the wishes of 16 million people who did not want to leave EU in first place and the wishes of those who did want to leave in the first place but not without a deal ? In terms of a no deal exit Parliament is exactly representing the majority wish of the people. There is no majority will for such a way of implementing the referendum mandate. That you refute all this because they came up with a decision you do not like is not the behaviour of a democrat.
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