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Land of the free

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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Parliament doesn't have the right to do such a thing.


So we see your true commitment to UK democracy. Parliament is only sovereign when it does things you like. It's sovereignty is dependent on if you approve or not. Parliament had the legal right to do this, the moral right to do and it did it. It is likely to do it again. Parliament would have a legal right to stop Brexit but not a moral one, without a new mandate from the people to do so but it did not do that. It stopped a specific form of leaving the EU, that is the most possible damaging form of exit, for the UK, the EU and the global economy to boot.

Paphitis wrote:I question their motives because this has undermined Britain's negotiations as well.


So the democratically arrived decision of a democratically elected Parliament is only 'legitimate' if you do not questions the motives of the democratically elected MP's. This is your idea of democracy is it ?

Paphitis wrote:The parliament has a duty to represent people, and their wishes. Parliament is out of line.


So who should be representing the wishes of 16 million people who did not want to leave EU in first place and the wishes of those who did want to leave in the first place but not without a deal ? In terms of a no deal exit Parliament is exactly representing the majority wish of the people. There is no majority will for such a way of implementing the referendum mandate. That you refute all this because they came up with a decision you do not like is not the behaviour of a democrat.


Parliament is suppose to do what the people want it to do and that means parliament needs to execute the will of the people.

If REMAIN won the referendum, then Parliament must ensure Britain remains but that was not what happened.

The Parliament is there to represent the people and as such they are obligated to put aside their support for remain and do what the people employs them to do on their behalf.

Parliament was NOT elected to interfere with the democratic wishes of the people. MPs only have vote in the referendum like everyone else and do not have some super human power to interfere with a referendum because they don't like the result.

If this was the case then why have a referendum and not just let the MPs vote on their own to remain and leave it at that?
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Londonrake » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:08 pm

I popped in to see how the Russians were doing.

Thought I'd got the wrong thread. :lol:
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:53 pm

Paphitis wrote:Parliament is suppose to do what the people want it to do and that means parliament needs to execute the will of the people.

If REMAIN won the referendum, then Parliament must ensure Britain remains but that was not what happened.

The Parliament is there to represent the people and as such they are obligated to put aside their support for remain and do what the people employs them to do on their behalf.

Parliament was NOT elected to interfere with the democratic wishes of the people. MPs only have vote in the referendum like everyone else and do not have some super human power to interfere with a referendum because they don't like the result.

If this was the case then why have a referendum and not just let the MPs vote on their own to remain and leave it at that?


The people voted to leave. Who then should decide how we leave ? I say the people should also decide this, either via their democratically elected leaders or via referendum and that I would accept any form of leaving that has such democratic legitimacy. What are you saying again ? Because it sounds like you are saying not only should some minority then decide how we leave they should do so with no one having any right at all to disagree with them or stop then on how we should leave. Who is the democrat here ?
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Re: Land of the free

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:57 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Parliament is suppose to do what the people want it to do and that means parliament needs to execute the will of the people.

If REMAIN won the referendum, then Parliament must ensure Britain remains but that was not what happened.

The Parliament is there to represent the people and as such they are obligated to put aside their support for remain and do what the people employs them to do on their behalf.

Parliament was NOT elected to interfere with the democratic wishes of the people. MPs only have vote in the referendum like everyone else and do not have some super human power to interfere with a referendum because they don't like the result.

If this was the case then why have a referendum and not just let the MPs vote on their own to remain and leave it at that?


The people voted to leave. Who then should decide how we leave ? I say the people should also decide this, either via their democratically elected leaders or via referendum and that I would accept any form of leaving that has such democratic legitimacy. What are you saying again ? Because it sounds like you are saying not only should some minority then decide how we leave they should do so with no one having any right at all to disagree with them or stop then on how we should leave. Who is the democrat here ?


Leave means leave.

The ones that decide HOW is the EU. By preparing for HARD BREXIT, Britain is increasing the chances of getting a good deal.

Boris Johnson has already assured Ireland that Britain will not be enforcing any controls on the border.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:28 pm

Paphitis wrote:Boris Johnson has already assured Ireland that Britain will not be enforcing any controls on the border.


What he has not done is explain to the EU how they can maintain the integrity of their customs union, that they do want, have every right to want and have every right to want to protect the integrity of, in such a scenario. I do not consider him saying 'technology' is such an explanation in the absence of any specific of what technology or demonstration as to how and if it actually works. In three years no one has come up with a credible way this can be done as far as I can see. Hence the problem we now have. Now you can take the view that the UK's desire to leave and not have any controls between NI and Ireland trumps the EU desire to maintain the integrity of it's customs union and make out it is unreasonable for the EU to place such importance on maintaining the integrity of its customs union and that it is all excuses by the EU if you want. Doing so will not make me think you any less of an idiot than I already do however.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:30 pm

Londonrake wrote:Thought I'd got the wrong thread. :lol:


Easily done here
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Re: Land of the free

Postby B25 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:35 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Parliament is suppose to do what the people want it to do and that means parliament needs to execute the will of the people.

If REMAIN won the referendum, then Parliament must ensure Britain remains but that was not what happened.

The Parliament is there to represent the people and as such they are obligated to put aside their support for remain and do what the people employs them to do on their behalf.

Parliament was NOT elected to interfere with the democratic wishes of the people. MPs only have vote in the referendum like everyone else and do not have some super human power to interfere with a referendum because they don't like the result.

If this was the case then why have a referendum and not just let the MPs vote on their own to remain and leave it at that?


The people voted to leave. Who then should decide how we leave ? I say the people should also decide this, either via their democratically elected leaders or via referendum and that I would accept any form of leaving that has such democratic legitimacy. What are you saying again ? Because it sounds like you are saying not only should some minority then decide how we leave they should do so with no one having any right at all to disagree with them or stop then on how we should leave. Who is the democrat here ?


This is total bollocks, in your haste to keep shooting down Paphiti, with your long winded unnecessary gobble-dee-gook, you are going down a slippery slope, but now wanting to add sub-referenda. So why don't we just add a whole list of other questions to it, like :

1. are you male or female, or any other fucked up gender!
2. Do you eat cornflakes in the morning that affect your brain cells
3. Are you a Cons/Lab/LibDem supporter
4. What level of education do you possess.
5. Before you vote, do you agree to illegal occupation of Cyprus?
6 etc, etc,etc.

The basic question was simply, stay or go ffs.

how they go was for the politicians to decide, but going was what was voted for.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby erolz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:41 pm

B25 wrote:The basic question was simply, stay or go ffs.

how they go was for the politicians to decide, but going was what was voted for.


Had politicians been able to agree by majority how we leave I would accept that. If we change those politicians via a GE and they can agree by majority how we leave I will accept that. What I will not accept is a minority at the most extreme end of the spectrum of the debate choosing how we leave when we know that way does NOT have majority support of politicians and almost certainly does not have majority support of the people. I do not accept that because I am democrat.
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Re: Land of the free

Postby cyprusgrump » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:52 pm

erolz66 wrote:
B25 wrote:The basic question was simply, stay or go ffs.

how they go was for the politicians to decide, but going was what was voted for.


Had politicians been able to agree by majority how we leave I would accept that. If we change those politicians via a GE and they can agree by majority how we leave I will accept that. What I will not accept is a minority at the most extreme end of the spectrum of the debate choosing how we leave when we know that way does NOT have majority support of politicians and almost certainly does not have majority support of the people. I do not accept that because I am democrat.


No doubt you'll still be trotting out this same old falsehood long after we have actually left! :lol:
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Re: Land of the freel

Postby supporttheunderdog » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:20 pm

One has to remember that with the control exercised by Putin, getting a free and fair public opinion poll may not be easy...my own understanding is that in May there was a closed poll by one of the state polling bodies which suggested less than half of Russians would vote for Putin, while Other polls suggest many blame him for their declining living standards and That trust In Putin has fallen to 32% or so.

Reports suggest the polling agency had to go out again with revised questions to get an answer Putin would like...

That is when the public are willing to answer the pollsters questions.

Putin and his crony’s quite simply cannot afford to loose control..by some accounts there is at least usd 40 billion unaccounted for in terms of Russian national wealth. Some is no doubt here in Cyprus, some likely lent to Trump via the private finance arm of Deutsche Bank, the one who paid big fines for laundering Russian money. The rest?
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