Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

Why wouldn't they be treated fairly and justly in Turkey?

You believe Turkey's treatment of asylum seekers today is better than Greece's was in 2011 ?

[Maximus]

Why wouldn't they be treated fairly and justly in Turkey?

You believe Turkey's treatment of asylum seekers today is better than Greece's was in 2011 ?

Pardon,

You made a statement that asylum seekers wouldn't be treated fairly and justly in Turkey.

I want to know why you think they wouldn't be...

not some projection of what my beliefs are.

[erolz66]

Why wouldn't they be treated fairly and justly in Turkey?

You believe Turkey's treatment of asylum seekers today is better than Greece's was in 2011 ?

Pardon,

You made a statement that asylum seekers wouldn't be treated fairly and justly in Turkey.

I want to know why you think they wouldn't be...

not some projection of what my beliefs are.

I think the EU does not meet its legal international obligations towards these people generically* so it is not hard for me to imagine Turkey does not either.

You made the statement that they are safe there. That is what I was questioning. How you can believe such when you spend so much time explaining Turkey's failures generically. Should I search for what you have said previously for example about Turkey's treatment of ethnic minorities within Turkey and compare that with you claim that Turkey is a safe place whereby these people can seek and fairly gain if they are entitled to it asylum ? Again I will ask do you really believe Turkey is a safe place for such people when in 2011 the ECHR ruled that Greece was not such a country ? What you are saying when you say Turkey is a safe place whereby asylum can be fairly sought, is that you believe that Turkey treats such people better than Greece was doing in 2011. This is so far from everything you have ever said about Turkey previously that I am forced to question it. Again in my frank and honest manner I think it is well within the realms of possibility that you do not really believe Turkey is such a safe country but claim you do because that is convenient to you in trying to ignore the EU's and Greece's own violations and treatment of such people since 2015. That is an explanation that would account for the 'anomaly' in your view on Turkey on this specific instance compared to every thing else you have expressed about Turkey.

*

Hypocrisy is rife when it comes to issues of asylum.

[erolz66]

Another link about the EU's failures and subverting of international law on asylum here

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ee-scandal

[Maximus]

They are safe in Turkey, compared to where they came from.

Turkeys treatment of ethnic minorities is appalling, in my opinion.

And the solution is not to flood Europe with Turkeys problems, migrants or asylum seekers.

Anyway, Greece didnt do anything to these people. She didnt destroy their homes.

The Greeks dont deserve to have their lives turned upside down. These migrants and asylum seekers have destroyed local business, the environment and have over burdened the system. Not to mention a 300% rise in crime on the islands. what to say about that,

you think you are solving one problem and saving some people in need but creating 5 more problems and sinking even more people too...

[erolz66]

They are safe in Turkey, compared to where they came from.

The international laws on asylum do not state that signatory countries have an obligation to ensure refugees have access to a place that is safer than that which they are fleeing from. A tent on the border between Greece and Turkey with periodic tear gassing is safer than where they fled from but I do not consider that to be a 'job done' solution for these peoples plight.

Turkeys treatment of ethnic minorities is appalling, in my opinion.

So do you believe Turkey fairly affords asylum seekers the legal rights they are granted under international law or not ? Or are you just saying I do not give a toss about these peoples rights under international law , as long as they end up somewhere safer from where they came from and do not place any obligation on us then I am ok with that ? Which is it max ?

And the solution is not to flood Europe with Turkeys problems, migrants or asylum seekers.

Anyway, Greece didnt do anything to these people. She didnt destroy their homes.

You either believe in the principal of asylum as laid out in the international laws or you do not. The principal of asylum is that everyone has an obligation to help such people. It is not that only those who have caused the problems that led to people having to flee their homes have such obligations. The whole basis of the principal of asylum is that all states have such obligations regardless of if they played a part in the creation or not.

The Greeks dont deserve to have their lives turned upside down.

This is the EU's failure. There are over 5 million people who have been displaced outside of Syrian boundaries by this conflict. They have to go somewhere. Somewhere they can live a safe and normal life for as long as they need and want such asylum and where their basic human rights will be respected and protected. Your solution would appear to be 'let Turkey take them, job done, and fuck what international law might say and fuck how badly treated they might end up being treated in Turkey having already lost everything in Syria, just so long as its not as bad as what they fled from in the first place and 'we' do not have to do anything. I do not accept such a 'solution'. It is not legal and it is not moral. The EU with a population of over 500,000 could and should take more of these people and it should share that burden fairly amongst the member states that make up the EU. Should it take them all. No of course not in exactly the same way Turkey should not be expected to take them all either. It is the failure of the EU to come up with a comprehensive fair system for distributing such refugees through out the EU that has left Greece (and Italy) with such a disproportionate share of the burden currently.

These migrants and asylum seekers have destroyed local business, the environment and have over burdened the system. Not to mention a 300% rise in crime on the islands. what to say about that,

See above

you think you are solving one problem and saving some people in need but creating 5 more problems and sinking even more people too...

I do not think I am solving problems. I am just challenging other peoples ideas and claims and offering my own for such in return.

[Maximus]

You are not making any valid point.

Not quite the same thing are they ? For example I might be reading a book about say quantum physics and find myself unable to 'get the point' that is being made. My reaction to that is not 'well obviously the author must not be making a valid point because I do not get it'

I am always willing to take the time to try and explain better or clearer what I am trying to say. It does take two to tango however

Thats not a good example,

But since you are willing to take the time and try and explain it better, then I am willing to listen.

go on....

start from here buddy,

what is you point?

[erolz66]

You are not making any valid point.

Not quite the same thing are they ? For example I might be reading a book about say quantum physics and find myself unable to 'get the point' that is being made. My reaction to that is not 'well obviously the author must not be making a valid point because I do not get it'

I am always willing to take the time to try and explain better or clearer what I am trying to say. It does take two to tango however

Thats not a good example,

But since you are willing to take the time and try and explain it better, then I am willing to listen.

go on....

start from here buddy,

what is you point?

I first posted in this thread in response to Paphitis' claim that 'these people' are not refugees, or 95% of them. My first 'point' then was that this claim did not stand basic scrutiny based on

- it is known there are 5 million plus people who have fled their former homes in Syria, with a million plus more on the way if Assad and Russia get their way in Iidib and the correlation of when mass numbers of people arrive at borders seeking asylum vs when various stages of Syrian conflict have occurred. If there are 5 million actual refugees and these are only 5% of those who have gone to borders seeking asylum, then the total numbers at those borders would be 100,000,000 people. The numbers just do not add up.

That was my first point / challenge / observation.

Anyway time for bed.

[Maximus]

I first posted in this thread in response to Paphitis' claim that 'these people' are not refugees, or 95% of them. My first 'point' then was that this claim did not stand basic scrutiny based on

Do you have some credible evidence?

About 50% of the people currently at the Moria refugee camp are not Syrian. They come from countries on a "safe list" from all over the world. Mostly from Africa, Asia and the middle east. People are processing them and recording the data. Ultimately, these people should be deported.

The people at the border now, are overwhelmingly not Syrian. Some are Turks. A Greek government spokesperson said and many of them have been interviewed and their country of origin is not Syria.

Why do you think Erdogan has tried to stop reporters from reporting on the situation? primarily because, he is busing them there, and preventing them from returning and they are majority not Syrian. It doesnt fit his narrative if he can easily be exposed.

- it is known there are 5 million plus people who have fled their former homes in Syria, with a million plus more on the way if Assad and Russia get their way in Iidib and the correlation of when mass numbers of people arrive at borders seeking asylum vs when various stages of Syrian conflict have occurred. If there are 5 million actual refugees and these are only 5% of those who have gone to borders seeking asylum, then the total numbers at those borders would be 100,000,000 people. The numbers just do not add up.

Your math doesn't add up more like.,

4 million are supposedly in Turkey. 1 million already made their way to Europe in 2015 when Merkel invited them all. There is your roughly 5 million.

We are referring to the people at the border now.

Most of them are migrants and not Syrian refugees. And they are using violent means to try and illegally enter a country.

All of them have been weaponized to blackmail the EU for unrelated benefits for Turkey. <---- That is what this is about.

[Kikapu]

It is irrelevant whether Turkey is a refugee friendly country or not, for the refugees to claim an asylum there or not, because if the refugees feel that Turkey is no better place than the countries they have escaped from, they do have the option to file their case with any foreign embassy in Turkey. If they are successful all the better all around. The question is, has the majority of the refugees taken this option and if not, why not? Surely that would be a better option than gate crash into Europe. If Turkey wants to solve the Syrian refugee problem on it’s soil, then Turkey needs to solve her involvement in Syria first. As the saying goes, “don’t take a crap where you eat”, which is exactly what Turkey has been doing and it expects others to clean up her mess, ie the EU.