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...Akinci ahead at the polls.

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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm

Sotos wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: He said what he said to gain more support from the TCs, whose greediness makes them believe that north Cyprus belongs to them.


Does any of Cyprus belong to TC ? Is it greediness that makes some GC claim Cyprus is Greek - belongs to Greeks and only Greeks ?


Greek Cypriots (in general, there are exceptions) do not believe that Cyprus belongs only to themselves. On the other hand the Turkish Cypriots (in general, there are exceptions) do believe that the north belongs only to themselves.


My question was not about 'how many', though that is the answer you have given. So I'll try again and ask Is it greed that makes some GC, whatever number that some may be, claim Cyprus is Greek ? Even if it is only 1 GC who claims Cyprus is Greek, belongs to Greeks and only Greek, do you think that they have this belief because of an inherent greediness ? Or do they have such a belief for reasons other or in addition to just greed ? The reason I ask this is if those GC who think Cyprus belongs to Greeks (however few there may be) do not think this because of greed but for some other reason or reasons, is it not therefore possible that some of those TC who believe north Cyprus belongs to them do so for reasons other than just greed ?

To frame my thoughts in an different way, it seems that your position is that TC are somehow more greedy than those who are not TC. That if only TC were just as greedy as anyone else, just as greedy as GC, then they would not believe that north Cyprus could or should be 'theirs'. If this is what you are saying then again I have to say, imo, this is a view that is more part of the problem than the solution. To me it is a narrative that is predicated on nothing more than a need to place blame on those defined as 'other' and that seeks to deny what to me is the simple and plain reality that blame for the state Cyprus is in today lies with us, Cypriots, all of us. Just repeating it lies with 'them' and only 'them' is what has got where we are today, what keeps us there, imo. We need, imo, to stop doing this if we want a different outcome to the ones we have got to date from doing it.

Sotos wrote: "trnc president" does not equal "TC community leader".


Well actually for the UN, the EU and even the RoC that is what it equals. When he meets with UN officials. EU officials, RoC officials he does so as the leader of the TC community and his legitimacy to be recognised as such by the rest of the world lies in his election to the presidency. The TRNC Prime minster or government or even parliament do not have this legitimacy, in the eyes of the UN etc. Only the president does.

So I do understand and accept the point you raise. I do accept that his legitimacy as the leader of a sovereign nation state is 'bestowed' on him by and as a result of Turkish military dominance but that does not mean there is no legitimacy therefore to his role and recognition of such as the leader of the TC community. This role and the international recognition of the legitimacy of it, is not bestowed on him because of Turkish military dominance in Cyprus. It is bestowed on him by the TC community.

Sotos wrote:And while the position of "TC community leader" could exist without Turkey, the position of "trnc president" couldn't.


Seems we are on the same page then, though it is not a case of this role 'could exist' without Turkey. The role does exist. It has existed in one form or another for as long as there has been a TC community. It was formalised and legalised and is still enshrined in the the constitution of the RoC itself. So not really a 'could exist' in my book but a 'does exist'. And before your clarification it did appear to me you where saying this role, as leader of the TC community only existed as a result of Turkish military dominance in north Cyprus. I welcome the improved understanding of your position I now have.

Sotos wrote:The problem that many TCs have with Turkey is neither the illegal occupation nor the ethnic cleansing (very few TCs care about that). The problem of those TCs with Turkey is that Turkey doesn't let them do as they wish with north Cyprus. Why should Turkey do that? Most of north Cyprus belongs to Greek Cypriots, and Turkey is the one which has the power to illegally occupy the north, and spends millions to maintain 40.000 occupation army and more millions to prop up the pseudo-state which would fail otherwise.


For a Cypriot like my Aunt, my fathers sister, what 74 represented was a change from living with constant fear in her own country to being able to live without such in her own country. In many ways and at the higher levels, this is simply what Turkish military presence in Cyprus since 74 meant and means to her and I would suggest a significant number of other TC to varying degrees. Now that is not to say that such justifies the actions of Turkey. It does however speak to a different reality as to what TC think about such presence then and now vs the view you have presented. My Aunt almost never talks about these things. In 50 years I have been alive I have such discussion with her 2 or 3 times ever. I had heard the term 'living in fear' many times but it was as a result of these rare and few discussions with her about her experience that the force of that phrase came home to me. From 1964 on wards, from the disappearance of her husband, my aunt lived day in and day out in literal fear. Every unexpected knock on the door caused a sensation of panic and fear, fear that it may be someone coming for hr and her children as they had done for her husband. Every bang and crash at night. This is how my Aunt lived in the country of her birth in that period. Please do try and imagine what that is like. For my Aunt that all changed as a result of 74. That is not 'greed'. She has said she would without hesitation give back the GC house she has lived in since 74, she would give 5 such properties if she could, if that could bring back her husband to her and the lifetime together she and her children were deprived of in 64. I have no reason to doubt her sincerity in this regard. That is not greed.

Again let me stress I do not relate this story and her experience as any sort of justification of Turkish action in 74. As any sort of denial of the brutality of it, of the suffering it caused Cypriots and specifically GC, of the rapes that occurred, the killings of innocents, the removal of 100,000s from their homes. I relate it in the hope that if you were ever to meet my Aunt you would not just accuse her of supporting Turkish military presence in Cyprus since 74 simply because she is 'greedy'. More greedy that average. More greedy than people who are not from the Turkish Cypriot community. More greedy than your average GC.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:15 pm

...can he wear two hats, he ridicules Anastasiades for doing so? And what is a Cypriot, a Cypriot of Turkish origins, when they are divided as well?

One thing is clear, it is the people, the silent majority if you will, who continue to support representation for Cypriots (re)united through their votes. These people, which constitute a People, are neither "Greek", or for "Turkishness", they are what has survived the subjugation of such imperialism over millennia. And they continue to represent themselves as a loving and inclusive people despite the unnatural dysfunctions imposed on them by "others", now.

...if Akinci can demonstrate his ''Cypriotness'', he will have the winning support of his electorate (again), especially if all the candidates that run against him are "Turkish". More importantly, if in doing so he gains the support of Greek speaking Cypriots, he will have the confidence he needs to drive reform favourably, from an allophone's perspective (read: not Greek), in Cyprus.

The allusion of Statehood is false; as it is Cypriots, and the Republic exists. The so called "TRNC" is a regime that is more of a civilian arm of the Turkish Army, than the representative of Cypriots Turcophone in origin, a distinct society, a Cypriot Nation within a Cypriot State. All of that can be made clear by Akinci, if he dares, (with or without Anastasiades by his side,) it is as simple as marching under his Flag, which is and should be the Flag of Cyprus.

Cyprus does not need a ''new'' Cyprus, it needs Constitutional reform. I see no reason why the Greek Constituency cannot fill their seats in the Communal Chamber, or that the Turkish Constituency cannot fill their seats in the Legislature, but fear. Indeed it is intentions that count, and it is an Agenda being held for decades by "Greeks" and "Turks", which must be wrested from them.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Sotos » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:05 pm

Lordo wrote:
Sotos wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: He said what he said to gain more support from the TCs, whose greediness makes them believe that north Cyprus belongs to them.


Does any of Cyprus belong to TC ? Is it greediness that makes some GC claim Cyprus is Greek - belongs to Greeks and only Greeks ?


Greek Cypriots (in general, there are exceptions) do not believe that Cyprus belongs only to themselves. On the other hand the Turkish Cypriots (in general, there are exceptions) do believe that the north belongs only to themselves.

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:The north part of Cyprus belongs mostly to Greek Cypriots. The TCs neither own, nor they have the power to illegally occupy north Cyprus. So Akinci can act for the votes all he wants, but in the end of the day he can be nothing but a puppet of Turkey, because without Turkey there is no "trnc" to be its "president".


The role as leader of the Turkish Cypriot community existed before 1974. It existed before 1960. You can get hung on the semantics of the word 'president' if you like (my local golf club has a president) but you seem to me to be suggesting that the Turkish Cypriot community have no right to elect or select a leader to represent them and only have one today because of Turkey ? As far as your are saying this , then you are part of the problem imo.


The ethnic cleansing and the illegal occupation are very real and not "semantics". If the Turkish Cypriots wanted to elect a leader for their community they could have done just that. "trnc president" does not equal "TC community leader". "trnc president" comes with territorial claims on the expense of Republic of Cyprus and also includes 10s of thousands of people who are not Turkish Cypriots. And while the position of "TC community leader" could exist without Turkey, the position of "trnc president" couldn't.

The problem that many TCs have with Turkey is neither the illegal occupation nor the ethnic cleansing (very few TCs care about that). The problem of those TCs with Turkey is that Turkey doesn't let them do as they wish with north Cyprus. Why should Turkey do that? Most of north Cyprus belongs to Greek Cypriots, and Turkey is the one which has the power to illegally occupy the north, and spends millions to maintain 40.000 occupation army and more millions to prop up the pseudo-state which would fail otherwise.

When Akinci chooses to collaborate with Turkey for the illegal occupation of Cyprus he is in no position to judge Turkey when Turkey is doing similar things elsewhere. And I doubt he gives a fuck about the Kurds. He is acting in that way to gain support from the most greedy among TCs who believe that they have a right to do as they wish in the north.

instead of jumping on the band wagon and starting with 1974, why don't you explain the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1963 you stupid boy.


There was no "cleansing" in 1963. What happened in 1963 wasn't any worst than what happened in 1958, and was nowhere close to what happened later in 1974 or what happened previously during Ottoman rule. So why start in 1963? Why not in 1958, or 1821, or 1571 (to give just a few examples)?
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Lordo » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:23 pm

were you alive in 58 or 63? if so how old?
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:08 am

Erolz (I am not using quotes to keep this shorter).

About Akinci - yes he has two roles and clearly there is nothing wrong with his "TC leader" role. What is wrong is with his other role, and I think it is unfortunate that there can be no TC leader who is elected by just TCs and who isn't also the leader of an illegal regime with territorial claims against RoC.

There is a difference between saying "Cyprus is Greek" and "Cyprus belongs to Greeks and only Greeks". In the following link there are two squares:

http://plnkr.co/edit/aakuH0aW9h4TEbVhChP0?p=preview

What color are these squares? I think most people would say that "Square 1 is Blue", "Square 2 is Blue", and I don't think you can argue that this is unreasonable or wrong. Now, if somebody said "it is pure blue and nothing but blue", this would be true only for the first square, because the second square actually has 18% Red in it and 82% Blue. That Red makes the second square not being "just blue" or "pure blue", but it doesn't prevent it from still being "blue". This is the kind of reasoning for those that say "Cyprus is Greek". I am not saying that this is the only valid reasoning, but it is certainly not "wrong" and it is not "greedy". Those GCs who say "Cyprus is purely Greek and belongs to Greeks and only Greeks" would be factually wrong and greedy, but such people are a tiny minority.

And I am not saying that TCs are more greedy because of something genetic or because of their ethnicity, culture or religion. I am not even saying that they are more greedy as individuals in their daily lives. But as a community they are greedy and this is because of the foreign involvement in Cyprus that allows and encourages them to be. The TCs are the 18% and they occupy the 37% of land. And even with a solution they want to keep nearly 30% of land, more than 50% of the coastline (hugely important for Cyprus), and essentially 50% of the power share. RoC (the recognized state of the whole Cyprus) declared an EEZ, and did so only for the south part of the island. Then "trnc" comes and declares an EEZ all around Cyprus! Aren't all these examples of greed?

And then it gets even worst with some. Not only they make all these extreme demands, but they think that those unreasonably large shares are their God given right, and they don't realize that the only reason they can make such demands is Turkey. And then while they still expect all those huge shares, at the same time they badmouth Turkey and they think that they are somehow better than Erdogan!

If, like your Aunt, it was just a case of fear and mistrust, TCs would have proposed an 18% - 82% split of everything. Given the circumstances we would have probably accepted, and the Cyprus issue would have closed long time ago.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:15 am

Lordo wrote:were you alive in 58 or 63? if so how old?


No, and in a few years there will be nobody that was an adult back then. Yet I am sure you will still use the parts of history that you think suit you as an excuse.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:16 am

You guys who are so over optimistic about Akinci, should first try to understand the political system in the occupied.
It's not like the RoC where the president has all the executive powers!

Akinci has limited powers, as limited as those Denktash had in 2004 when Talat was the PM and Turkey used him as a substitute of "equal authoruty" during the Anan Plan negotiations. He cannot even appoint his own Ministers unless he agrees with the political parties. Fyi 8 out of 10 Ministers in the occupied are from Denktash's party including Tatar the PM. Most of the executive power in the occupied is in the hands of the PM and the ministers.

Akinci is not the one who decides of what happens in the occupied, It's the Prime minister and his ministers. When Ozersay+Tatar recently decided the opening of Varoshia for donation to Turkish businessmen + settlers Akinci said "erm... but it's not me who did it , it's them"!!

Still presumably Akinci as President has the authority to negotiate the Cyprus problem, after he consults Turkey and get instructions.
Those who think he is not a puppet, may go on and explain us why he yielded to Ankara's demand to refuse continuation of the talks for a whole year on the excuse of the upcoming British elections?
Why last August while he unofficially accepted the draft agreement wih J.H. Lute changed his mind after flying to Turkey?
The Turkish policy is clear:delay at all costs, postponements upon postponements for eternity.
I bet the next excuse will be the upcoming elections in the occupied....

Akinci is certainly better than others in the occupied, but don't hold your breath that he has enough power to do much.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Lordo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:05 pm

Sotos wrote:
Lordo wrote:were you alive in 58 or 63? if so how old?


No, and in a few years there will be nobody that was an adult back then. Yet I am sure you will still use the parts of history that you think suit you as an excuse.

that explains your ignorance of the facts. you can ignore the posts who lived that time, becasue you have read more accurate knowledge. you stupid kant.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Lordo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:09 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:You guys who are so over optimistic about Akinci, should first try to understand the political system in the occupied.
It's not like the RoC where the president has all the executive powers!

Akinci has limited powers, as limited as those Denktash had in 2004 when Talat was the PM and Turkey used him as a substitute of "equal authoruty" during the Anan Plan negotiations. He cannot even appoint his own Ministers unless he agrees with the political parties. Fyi 8 out of 10 Ministers in the occupied are from Denktash's party including Tatar the PM. Most of the executive power in the occupied is in the hands of the PM and the ministers.

Akinci is not the one who decides of what happens in the occupied, It's the Prime minister and his ministers. When Ozersay+Tatar recently decided the opening of Varoshia for donation to Turkish businessmen + settlers Akinci said "erm... but it's not me who did it , it's them"!!

Still presumably Akinci as President has the authority to negotiate the Cyprus problem, after he consults Turkey and get instructions.
Those who think he is not a puppet, may go on and explain us why he yielded to Ankara's demand to refuse continuation of the talks for a whole year on the excuse of the upcoming British elections?
Why last August while he unofficially accepted the draft agreement wih J.H. Lute changed his mind after flying to Turkey?
The Turkish policy is clear:delay at all costs, postponements upon postponements for eternity.
I bet the next excuse will be the upcoming elections in the occupied....

Akinci is certainly better than others in the occupied, but don't hold your breath that he has enough power to do much.

you were going so well about your knowledge about the system in the north which is superior in democracy than the south. i mean fancy selecting ministers thta have not been elected by the public.

when it comes akinci and how much he is under control suddenly your stupidity hits the roof.

here is a man that was accused by erdogan, cavusoglu and bahceli as neing unfit to be president of the terrgish cypriots and you still maintain he takes orders from him.

there must be some magnetic field you leave and it renders you an idiot. stay in the magnetic field.
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Re: ...Akinci ahead at the polls.

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:42 pm

Lordo wrote:
Sotos wrote:
Lordo wrote:were you alive in 58 or 63? if so how old?


No, and in a few years there will be nobody that was an adult back then. Yet I am sure you will still use the parts of history that you think suit you as an excuse.

that explains your ignorance of the facts. you can ignore the posts who lived that time, becasue you have read more accurate knowledge. you stupid kant.


While you were an eye witness to the events of 1958? I highly doubt you were, and the information you received back then probably came from Turkish newspapers and radio broadcasts, which were intentionally lying and misinforming you with the aim to spark a conflict between GCs and TCs.
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