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Quest to find the truth-Frustration

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Rahmi » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:55 pm

GC majority supported Macarios at the time, that's true. But, apart from the Macarios issues, it is difficult to say that a majority of GC's were against the policies of the coup, enosis and ethnic cleansing of Turks.

Only a small minority of GC's fought against the coup. I do not see how the junta could be stopped if it was not for Turks. If the junta succeeded, it would be the end of TC's.

The GC community was not up to the challange of defending their fellow TC's. There was no force at the time which could have
guaranteed TC's lives, except the Turkish military. This is what connects Turks from Turkey with TC's. Although we are not always in the best of terms, we do not harm eachother for ethnic reasons. This is crucial to make a group of people a nation. This is what Cyprus lacks.

I am not supporting the way the intervention is executed. It is a shame what happenned to thousands of innocent GC's. But if it falls into the hands of soldiers to solve a problem, the result is rarely humanitarian.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:09 pm

Rahmi wrote:GC majority supported Macarios at the time, that's true. But, apart from the Macarios issues, it is difficult to say that a majority of GC's were against the policies of the coup, enosis and ethnic cleansing of Turks.

Only a small minority of GC's fought against the coup. I do not see how the junta could be stopped if it was not for Turks. If the junta succeeded, it would be the end of TC's.

The GC community was not up to the challange of defending their fellow TC's. There was no force at the time which could have
guaranteed TC's lives, except the Turkish military. This is what connects Turks from Turkey with TC's. Although we are not always in the best of terms, we do not harm eachother for ethnic reasons. This is crucial to make a group of people a nation. This is what Cyprus lacks.

I am not supporting the way the intervention is executed. It is a shame what happenned to thousands of innocent GC's. But if it falls into the hands of soldiers to solve a problem, the result is rarely humanitarian.


Rahmi, absolutely no TC was attacked or harmed during the Junta coup, or as a direct or indirect result of the coup. Stop giving this false impression that the TCs were somehow attacked during the coup for any reason, because it is not accurate. Any of the TCs that were harmed in 1974, were harmed after the Turkish invasion, either because they were militarily aiding the invading forces or in acts of revenge against them by irregulars, after the Turkish invasion and because of the Turkish invasion! The reaction of the TC leadership at the time the coup took place, in the words of Denktash himself, was that the issue of the coup did not affect them or relate with them (TCs) and it was an internal issue among the GCs. Learn your history, or better ask your elders, people that had actually lived through the events, and live the Turkish propaganda websites alone, as you won't find the truth there! And, please do some proper studding before coming here, because if we just want to learn what the Turkish propaganda says, we may as well visit those Turkish propaganda websites by ourselves and read all the nonsense and lies they say. We do not need anyone here to simply re-transmit the nonsense of such websites into this forum.
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Postby boomerang » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:10 pm

that was the excuse back then...whats the excuse today?
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Postby rolo » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:00 pm

Why is it so hard to believe that a good percentage of Cypriots care about ALL cypriots, period? Is it because if you believe that they dont, it is easier for you to deal?


Well tell them Andi during the 60-74 govt, which gc politician stood up and said

the tc are our brothers lets stop killing them.
and if he did then please tell me how many gcs voted for him.


Andi

Its obvious from your writings that your pre 74 cypriot knowledge is limited.

Athens launched the coup as part of a popularity campaign to win fading popular Greek support. By taking Cyprus and unifying it under the Greek flag that long standing Greek goal of reclaiming Instanbul or Constantinople would have been one step nearer.

Makarios initially wanted and fought for Enosis, however with the realisation of this aim, instead of becoming an all time great Hellenic hero, he understood that would with Enosis his position in Cyprus his would have been under theart. In short he would have become a puppet or yes man bowing to Athens.

Makarios was aware that the Turks would not stand by for either Enosis, nor the wholesale bludgeoning/convertion/deportation of the Turkish Cypriot race necessary for any such Enosis.

Greece miscalculated Turkeys commitment to keeping Cyprus free of total Greek control, as well as their ability and to do so. Makarios was more open to the Turkish intervention scenario and instead of going down the road of open civil war between tc and gc he embarked upon a longer term project of reducing the tc population. Had he had his way tc population in Cyprus would now be about five per cent total population. His methods are documented in this forum.


Makarios’s men were fighting off Athens and in so doing averting the even bigger threat of the Turks.

These men fighting for freedom for all Cypriots? I think not.
Where were these gallant heroes when the tcs were being slaughtered then?

Don’t kid yourself.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:55 pm

rolo wrote: Well tell them Andi during the 60-74 govt, which gc politician stood up and said

the tc are our brothers lets stop killing them.
and if he did then please tell me how many gcs voted for him.


Many!

If what the GC's only aim was to kill TCs, and if none stood up for them as you unfairly claim, the toll of death wouldn't have been only some 750 TC people (vs some 400 GCs) during a period of 14 years (1960-74,) but way larger! The same goes for 1974, after the Turkish invasion took place, during which period more than 55 thousand TCs were living in the south areas, away from the Turkish invading troops and circulated by angry GC populations yet only a couple of hundred of TCs lost their lives in acts of revenge, while at the same time a tenfold number of GC civilians were getting murdered by the Turkish troops in the north.

I only need to remind you that on 9 of July 1821 and during the subsequent 5 days alone, with only the suspicion that the GCs may have been conspiring in favour of the Greek independence struggle, the Ottoman Turks had chopped off the heads of more than 700 GCs in Nicosia and all around Cyprus, including the then Archbishop Kyprianos. In 5 days only ...not in 14 years!

But, what can one do for you if the only book about Cyprus that you have read in your life was the "Genoside" files.
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Postby Natty » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:07 pm

only some 750 TC people (vs some 400 GCs)


Wow Kifeas, I didn't realise it was that many, I read that the number on both sides were around 100 and something...I think it was about 191 TC's and 132 GC's...although I did read that there were missing people's....Actually I just thought that could have been in the year 1963 alone...not too sure...I guess this why I'm confused, because you read so many conflicting views on figures, and what happened, when and why....:(

Peace! :)
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Postby Natty » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:57 pm

cypezokyli wrote:hi natty.

Hey, Just writing this because at the moment I'm slightly frustrated. I've read so many things about Cyprus, trying to get an idea of why exactly Cyprus is divided.


dont worry, many people are confused. many times it is better to acknowledge that one is confused than pretend to know.
the point is that there is no historical truth about "the reason". a number of factors have played a role, but unfortunately history never gave us a balance in order to judge who is to blame more and at what percentage. inevitably it is here where the beauty of historical or political analysis comes into play , where each one forms his own opinion. the trend usually in all conflicts is : its everybodys elses fault besides me and anyone who believes the contrary he is either the enemy or payed by the enemy. in cyprus this attitude is no different.


However, even though I have a general view (Greek/Turkish extremists, British colonialism, American Foreign policy, The Junta and Turkey's policy on Cyprus, etc...) I'm still so confused about so many things


i would add to your list the non-extremists cypriots. add makarios , add koutsiouk, add akel... everyone carries his part, for doing or not doing certain things. for being quiet about others, for pretending of not seeing many more...

.Another thing that I've noticed is that people's attitudes to the Cypriots, mainly the Greek Cypriots is "well It's your fault", as If it was only the Greek Cypriots that were involved in the inter communal fighting, and as though an attempted coup, not supported by the majority of Greek Cypriots (which subsequently failed) excuses the 32 year illegal occupation of the North, and the forcing of many Cypriots, Greek and Turkish alike, from their homes and villages, homes and villages that they and their families have lived in for generations...


this is in general, the attitude of a number of tcs, which is the mirror image of the attitude of many gcs.

The "ancient hatred" between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots, instead of on the other more important factors involved.


no conflict is created out of ancient hatrets. these are popular believes who have no scientific foundation, just like there are no clashes of civilizations.


I know it seems that I am saying that the Greek Cypriots are not at all responsible for what happened in Cyprus, But I'm really not. I Know that the Greek Cypriot community/ leadership made many mistakes often fatal, and anyone who cannot see that needs to open their eyes, so to speak..



could you name a couple of those fatal mistakes ?

i am really dying to see even the slightest self-critisism.
but I honestly believe that if the Turkish and Greek Cypriots had been left to themselves, Cyprus would not be divided today


this is a very typical answer that i used to believe in, but i am not sure exactly what it means. so allow me to ask for some clarifications :

if we were left alone by who ?
were we ever left alone and screwed it up?
if we were left alone what would we have done different (as cypriots or as gcs) ?
if we are left alone in the future will we manage to solve it ?

to which period are you refferring to ?


there is also the view that if we were left alone, we would end just like most pieces of the collapsing ottoman empire either purely greek or purely turkish island.

but since the clock can never go backwards we can only speculate on what would have happenned.

I try and think about how we can re-unify Cyprus, and I really try and hold on to some form of hope, but it just seems that there are too many obstacles in the way to be able to achieve a fair re-unification any time soon....


dont loose hope. a gc artist (who is not really appriciated by our community ) has as his logo :

if there is no road to peace
then we are going to construct one.


Hi Cypezokyli, thanks for your reply (Actually thank you to everyone who replied). When you talk about there being no "ancient Hatreds" I completely agree, I read somewhere that apparently the Cyprus Problem occurred precisely because of "this hatred" something which I believe the evidence does not back up. I mean how can that ancient hatred explain the fact that for many years TC's and GC's lived integrated throughout the whole of Cyprus, even up until the invasion.

Self criticism? :D Well again I'm not too sure, as I've read so many conflicting views, but as far as I can see there was a disregard for the average TC view, and even though enosis was a legitimate form of self-determination, the idea was handled very badly. For one, the idea was not properly explained to the masses and the fears of the TC's were not laid to rest, the GC's in effect excluded the TC's to a certain extent. There were also mistakes made within EOKA, the first being that the leadership (including Grivas) were often very right wing, anti-communist men, however I do believe that the vast majority were simply fighting for their "freedom". As TC's were excluded from the 'Enosis' idea, they were also excluded from the EOKA campaign ( although the church playing a big role didn't help..). Now I don't know too much about Makarios, however I have read that some people felt he aligned himself with the wrong people, and that the power "got to his head", although as I've said before one thing I respect about him, was his decision not to follow the Anglo/American plans for Cyprus, although some people believe this was a fatal mistake. The Greek Cypriot leadership also played a partial role in the constitutional break down, however I believe that the main culprit in the breakdown was the constitution itself...(if that makes sense...:)). The GC leadership I know has also been accused of still working towards 'enosis', something I understand as many people fought for enosis, I guess you can't expect the idea to suddenly die, as well as that they were given a constitution they felt was unfair...I guess I can believe that was their aim at the beginning, but towards the end it doesn't make too much sense to me. I mean if Makarios wanted enosis, why did the Junta and EOKA B have to kill him to achieve their goal? I can't think of anything else...Lol...However I do realise I may be wrong about many things, well all the things I've written, I guess that's just what I understood from what I've read, been told etc...

When I say "If the Cypriots had been left alone I believe the Cyprus problem would not have come about", I guess I mean, instead of the super powers looking out for their own interests above those of the people that actually had to live on the island, they should have guided the people's properly, and listened to their opinions/demands fairly, instead of dividing the two communities further...Although I understand that, that is a very naive look on things.... :oops:


From what I can see everyone played in part in "the making" of the Cyprus problem, as you say, I guess we just have to accept that and look to the future... :)


Peace! :)
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Postby andri_cy » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:54 pm

rolo wrote:
Why is it so hard to believe that a good percentage of Cypriots care about ALL cypriots, period? Is it because if you believe that they dont, it is easier for you to deal?


Well tell them Andi during the 60-74 govt, which gc politician stood up and said

the tc are our brothers lets stop killing them.
and if he did then please tell me how many gcs voted for him.


Andi

Its obvious from your writings that your pre 74 cypriot knowledge is limited.

Athens launched the coup as part of a popularity campaign to win fading popular Greek support. By taking Cyprus and unifying it under the Greek flag that long standing Greek goal of reclaiming Instanbul or Constantinople would have been one step nearer.

Makarios initially wanted and fought for Enosis, however with the realisation of this aim, instead of becoming an all time great Hellenic hero, he understood that would with Enosis his position in Cyprus his would have been under theart. In short he would have become a puppet or yes man bowing to Athens.

Makarios was aware that the Turks would not stand by for either Enosis, nor the wholesale bludgeoning/convertion/deportation of the Turkish Cypriot race necessary for any such Enosis.

Greece miscalculated Turkeys commitment to keeping Cyprus free of total Greek control, as well as their ability and to do so. Makarios was more open to the Turkish intervention scenario and instead of going down the road of open civil war between tc and gc he embarked upon a longer term project of reducing the tc population. Had he had his way tc population in Cyprus would now be about five per cent total population. His methods are documented in this forum.


Makarios’s men were fighting off Athens and in so doing averting the even bigger threat of the Turks.

These men fighting for freedom for all Cypriots? I think not.
Where were these gallant heroes when the tcs were being slaughtered then?

Don’t kid yourself.



Rolo I dont assume what you know so I would appreciate it if you wouldnt speculate about what I know. Because if I were free to assume that I know what you know I would say you know what you have been told and what you have been wanted to know and nothing more. I know for a FACT that my father and grandfather a long with all the men in my family were fighting the coup and the women in my family were hiding TCs in our homes. I dont think we would be the only ones. I never said the politicians did this or that or the other. I am talking about the SIMPLETONS the everyday cypriots, the ones that lived together happily until all this started and tried to help each other out. But of course it suits you better not to know any of this because it doesnt fit your little box of a world.
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Postby rolo » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:07 pm

you dont assume what i know - but you know what fits in my little box.


lets just leave it there then.




hey what did your simpleton father and his father do when the tcs were being attacked them. Ask them what. Tell us the story of how they protected the tcs. Ask them who they voted for at the elections, Makarios or one of those politicians who believed in equal rights for tcs. Go on take the lid off your box for once and ask them the real probing questions that matter, the ones they dont like answering.

They knew what happened,

the vast majority of gcs were and are decent good hearted people, but too many of them simply closed their eyes during those 14 years. Ask your farhers if they also closed their eyes to what was happening to the tcs, then you can explain more to me about life in a box.
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Postby andri_cy » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:52 pm

I would but my grand father was killed by Turkish soldiers in 1974 in front of my grandmother who was later on raped by Turkish soldiers and my father is also dead. So you see you can talk a bunch of crap about what the junta did and how the GC's didnt protect you but I didnt see a TC standing up for any GC's when they were getting shot or the wives were getting raped and beaten. You keep bring up the Junta and talking about how the Gc's didnt fight for the TC's and blah blah blah when you know for a fact or you should anyway that in a havoc like that no one has time to think. You are right maybe while they were fighting for freedom, the GC's should have stopped in the middle of it and took a megaphone and declared that they are fighting for their TC brothers also. I mean how dumb of them not to. What the hell were they thinking right? Give me a break....
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