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Quest to find the truth-Frustration

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Quest to find the truth-Frustration

Postby Natty » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:54 pm

Hey, Just writing this because at the moment I'm slightly frustrated. I've read so many things about Cyprus, trying to get an idea of why exactly Cyprus is divided. However, even though I have a general view (Greek/Turkish extremists, British colonialism, American Foreign policy, The Junta and Turkey's policy on Cyprus, etc...) I'm still so confused about so many things....It seems to me (from reports in the British Media, etc..) that too much emphasise is put on 'The "ancient hatred" between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots, instead of on the other more important factors involved...Another thing that I've noticed is that people's attitudes to the Cypriots, mainly the Greek Cypriots is "well It's your fault", as If it was only the Greek Cypriots that were involved in the inter communal fighting, and as though an attempted coup, not supported by the majority of Greek Cypriots (which subsequently failed) excuses the 32 year illegal occupation of the North, and the forcing of many Cypriots, Greek and Turkish alike, from their homes and villages, homes and villages that they and their families have lived in for generations...

I know it seems that I am saying that the Greek Cypriots are not at all responsible for what happened in Cyprus, But I'm really not. I Know that the Greek Cypriot community/ leadership made many mistakes often fatal, and anyone who cannot see that needs to open their eyes, so to speak....but I honestly believe that if the Turkish and Greek Cypriots had been left to themselves, Cyprus would not be divided today...(Although i could be being slightly naive. :) .). I try and think about how we can re-unify Cyprus, and I really try and hold on to some form of hope, but it just seems that there are too many obstacles in the way to be able to achieve a fair re-unification any time soon....

I Know I'm not really asking a question or posting any new information...I guess I just wanted a good rant (Typical Cypriot Female...Lol). Feel free to post any ideas of what you want for the future of Cyprus, or why you think we are in this mess, etc...


As always, Peace! :)
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Postby cypezokyli » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:18 pm

hi natty.

Hey, Just writing this because at the moment I'm slightly frustrated. I've read so many things about Cyprus, trying to get an idea of why exactly Cyprus is divided.


dont worry, many people are confused. many times it is better to acknowledge that one is confused than pretend to know.
the point is that there is no historical truth about "the reason". a number of factors have played a role, but unfortunately history never gave us a balance in order to judge who is to blame more and at what percentage. inevitably it is here where the beauty of historical or political analysis comes into play , where each one forms his own opinion. the trend usually in all conflicts is : its everybodys elses fault besides me and anyone who believes the contrary he is either the enemy or payed by the enemy. in cyprus this attitude is no different.


However, even though I have a general view (Greek/Turkish extremists, British colonialism, American Foreign policy, The Junta and Turkey's policy on Cyprus, etc...) I'm still so confused about so many things


i would add to your list the non-extremists cypriots. add makarios , add koutsiouk, add akel... everyone carries his part, for doing or not doing certain things. for being quiet about others, for pretending of not seeing many more...

.Another thing that I've noticed is that people's attitudes to the Cypriots, mainly the Greek Cypriots is "well It's your fault", as If it was only the Greek Cypriots that were involved in the inter communal fighting, and as though an attempted coup, not supported by the majority of Greek Cypriots (which subsequently failed) excuses the 32 year illegal occupation of the North, and the forcing of many Cypriots, Greek and Turkish alike, from their homes and villages, homes and villages that they and their families have lived in for generations...


this is in general, the attitude of a number of tcs, which is the mirror image of the attitude of many gcs.

The "ancient hatred" between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots, instead of on the other more important factors involved.


no conflict is created out of ancient hatrets. these are popular believes who have no scientific foundation, just like there are no clashes of civilizations.


I know it seems that I am saying that the Greek Cypriots are not at all responsible for what happened in Cyprus, But I'm really not. I Know that the Greek Cypriot community/ leadership made many mistakes often fatal, and anyone who cannot see that needs to open their eyes, so to speak..



could you name a couple of those fatal mistakes ?

i am really dying to see even the slightest self-critisism.
but I honestly believe that if the Turkish and Greek Cypriots had been left to themselves, Cyprus would not be divided today


this is a very typical answer that i used to believe in, but i am not sure exactly what it means. so allow me to ask for some clarifications :

if we were left alone by who ?
were we ever left alone and screwed it up?
if we were left alone what would we have done different (as cypriots or as gcs) ?
if we are left alone in the future will we manage to solve it ?

to which period are you refferring to ?


there is also the view that if we were left alone, we would end just like most pieces of the collapsing ottoman empire either purely greek or purely turkish island.

but since the clock can never go backwards we can only speculate on what would have happenned.

I try and think about how we can re-unify Cyprus, and I really try and hold on to some form of hope, but it just seems that there are too many obstacles in the way to be able to achieve a fair re-unification any time soon....


dont loose hope. a gc artist (who is not really appriciated by our community ) has as his logo :

if there is no road to peace
then we are going to construct one.
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Postby Rahmi » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:02 am

and as though an attempted coup, not supported by the majority of Greek Cypriots (which subsequently failed) excuses the 32 year illegal occupation of the North


It is not possible to check whether the coup was supported by a majority or not. It was not supported, in retrospect, after it failed due to the Turkish intervention.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:10 am

Rahmi wrote:
and as though an attempted coup, not supported by the majority of Greek Cypriots (which subsequently failed) excuses the 32 year illegal occupation of the North


It is not possible to check whether the coup was supported by a majority or not. It was not supported, in retrospect, after it failed due to the Turkish intervention.


Look at this kid trying to teach us our history.
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:13 am

ofcource it is possible to check that.

the widespread support for makarios at the time is not-questionable by any serious historical research. moreover previous attempts to overthrow makarios failed simply by calling the people to huge demonstrations to which they always responded (the coup that succeeded in 1974, took notice of that factor and captured RIK - the national cypriot channel. when makarios tried to call for a general strike it was simply not possible).
besides, there were some sources of resistance in limassol and in lefkosia (in kaimakli if i am not mistaken) against the coup. makarios hat his own armed supporters

but the fact it was not supported doesnot necessarily mean that it would have failed. in greece the coup was not supported but it nevertheless lasted a whole 7 years. but that is a "crime" different than support. it is called silence.
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Postby rolo » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:36 am

Hey Natty don’t be too fooled by this, Yes the majority of Gcs probably did support Makarios.

The coup’s aim was to unify Greece and Cyprus and tcs could like it or lump it (to put it mildy)…, Makarios’s aim was total gc control of Cyprus in less obvious ways, so as not to give Turkey legal reason to evoke guarantor rights.

Did you think the gcs fighting the coup were fighting to protect tc lives? These were the same who only a few years earlier were killing tcs by the hundreds.
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:42 am

Did you think the gcs fighting the coup were fighting to protect tc lives?


unfortunately you are right. such people didnot exist at that point in time.

in a very weird way, i believe that some (albeit very very few) people might exist today.

does that sound too crazy ?
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Postby andri_cy » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:41 am

rolo wrote:
Did you think the gcs fighting the coup were fighting to protect tc lives? These were the same who only a few years earlier were killing tcs by the hundreds.



Did you think that while those people were fighting they had time to stand around and think "hey I am fighting but its not for the TCS"? I dont think they had time to think anything. They were fighting for freedom and I think that, it was freedom for all that didnt want the coup; period. You need to stop creating issues out of nothing just so that you have an excuse for something. They were fighting the coup-simple as that. Why does there have to be a separation of who they were fighting for? Why is it so hard to believe that a good percentage of Cypriots care about ALL cypriots, period? Is it because if you believe that they dont, it is easier for you to deal?
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:57 am

could you us some examples andry_cy of gcs who cared about the well being of the tcs at the time ?

because i am familiar of only a few, who were only confined to express their concerns theoretically. in practise i dont recall such actions. would you be kind enough to bring them to our attention ?
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:46 am

rolo wrote:Hey Natty don’t be too fooled by this, Yes the majority of Gcs probably did support Makarios.

The coup’s aim was to unify Greece and Cyprus and tcs could like it or lump it (to put it mildy)…, Makarios’s aim was total gc control of Cyprus in less obvious ways, so as not to give Turkey legal reason to evoke guarantor rights.

Did you think the gcs fighting the coup were fighting to protect tc lives? These were the same who only a few years earlier were killing tcs by the hundreds.


I am sorry Rolo but the above arguments of yours are total rubbish! Those people were fighting to defend the lawful government, and to maintain the then status quo in the RoC affairs, until a political agreement with the TC community would be reached. As you know, the two communities, since a few years earlier were negotiating between them (Denktash and Clerides) for a political settlement of the 1964 constitutional crisis, so that the TC community is integrated back into an independed RoC, and this is the very reason why they wanted to overthrow Makarios (i.e. for having given up the Enosis goal.)

As for killing TCs by the hundreds, this is not the case, since throughout all the conflicts during the 1960's, less than 750 TCs have lost their lives, plus more than half of this number from the GCs.

Natty, there is no point allowing these people to victimise or incriminate you as a GC, in this way that Rolo tries to do, and I do not see the purpose of your initial post. There is absolutely no natural, legitimate, legal or ethical justification or excuse why 200,000 GC innocent civilians have been ethnically cleanse from the north in 1974, and there is absolutely no natural, ethical, legal or legitimate justification why their properties have been usurped and looted, nor why they are deprived today (and for 32 years) of many of their basic human rights by the illegal Turkish occupation forces. You should firmly consolidate this in your mind, and you should not try to prove that we the GCs are not elephants, because we are not elephants, and in this is not something debatable but an axiom instead. The victim of a rape should in no way put herself in a situation by which she will have to prove that she did not provoke or invite her rape, and unfortunately this is what you unintentionally did in this thread.
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