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Ukraine - The reality of war.

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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:04 am

Robin Hood wrote:At least the argument that the tanks were taken from Ukraine forces and not, as Kiev and the US says, were sent from Russia, is now de-bunked and gives some detailed explanations that say; it is ONLY the Ukraine forces that actually have these tanks in this variation. The evidence provided says that Russia scrapped the last of theirs in 2012 and they never updated their tanks to this version. (WikiPedia)

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/06/ukraine-these-tanks-and-the-state-department-lies-again-.html

If you watch the linked videos in the above article you will see that this ‘tank’ convoy is actually travelling from the west toward the east! Why? Headlights on cars and the number of cars/people says early evening and the sky is that of a of a SETTING sun and is behind them. So they are not en-route from Russia they are going in the opposite direction!

Paphitis: Try getting some relevant information instead of just repeating what the Washington Post says or CNN or BBC ..... because none of the MSM outlets provide a scrap of back-up evidence for their fairy tales ..... they rely on the Fairy God Mother in Kiev! You are being brain washed! :|

Maybe try looking at something like this and don’t forget to look at the graphic photos! Again all the back-up you need to support the fact that what you see and hear in the MSM about events in Ukraine is mainly bulls**t propaganda. It is difficult to tamper with this sort of visual evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJRnI-X8Q

Maximus:

I have just noticed the NATO photographs. Unless you know when they were taken and in which order you could read anything into them? Videos however are basically in real time and are difficult to alter to suit an argument. You can alter the date/time but the content takes a lot of skill to alter and even then, an expert could spot the changes. So I find video more credible than still photo's. Watch the above links they are interesting :o


Why? because you believe there is a Convoy heading West? :lol:

What about the convoy heading East and the buildup on the border?

What about the 16000 Troops in Crimea that are on the streets and have annexed Crimea to Russia?
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby zan » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:20 am

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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:31 am

interesting report zan.

20 billion was offered, to buy the network of pipes in Ukraine, surely 100 billion at this point is still a good investment for Russia, with the Crimea tossed in as well...

...money is the root of all of this, money I suppose can solve it.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:39 am

Paphitis:
I read it and the terms are not good enough.

Now we know why after 40 years Cyprus is still no nearer a settlement than it was all those years ago. Have you ever heard of the word ‘compromise’?
Yes Russian Troops are in Ukraine, and they are leading the insurgency
.
Russian troops are in Crimea and by treaty they have a right to be there whether it is still part of Ukraine or not. As for the rest of Ukraine ...... I have asked you for some proof and as you have not come up with any (Even the White House can’t) so I have to assume you are just repeating what you see on BBC or read in the Sydney Herald. No evidence ...... no crime! Simple.
They must withdraw and Russian Troops must withdraw either to Russia or back to their Crimean Bases.

They have no troops to withdraw. There are ‘Brits’ fighting with the rebels in Syria/Iraq, they all carry British passports but they are not there on behest of the British Government. So, the British Government has no control over them. Ukraine is no different ......... there may well be ethnic Russians fighting there but not under the orders of Moscow.

The people are not free to determine their future, and this simply can't happen within a Sovereign State.

Is that so? :o
• UK is a sovereign State and Scotland wants to become independent ..... referendum? .... no problem!

• Canada is a sovereign State and Quebec wants to become independent ..... referendum? .... no problem!

• Former Yugoslavia was a Sovereign State, Bosnia wanted independence ..... referendum ..... no problem! NATO even bombed Serbia to ensure the result.

The borders and Sovereignty of Ukraine must be respected unconditionally.

That is a decision for the people of Ukraine as a whole and if the decision by referendum was for a collection of Federal States under a Ukraine flag (Like the EU wants for the member states and of course the US has already) but with each State having autonomy ..... then that is their choice not one to be made for them by the EU/US/NATO. Once a State has autonomy ..... as Scotland does in the UK, then they can decide whether to remain in such a Union of States by referendum and may make other allegiances. Boundaries are drawn up by former colonial powers and/or as a result of wars of conquest. It should be the people, by self determination that have the right to decide their own future.


So where is the evidence that there are Russian Troops in Ukraine? Of course the same sort of story that the CIA and FBI have people in Kiev and that ‘Blackwater’ have mercenaries on the ground in Eastern Ukraine has also been claimed but, as I have never seen anything that proves it, I regard that as simply hypothesis and without foundation.

Why? because you believe there is a Convoy heading West?

You mean to tell me they have reversed the orbit of Earth and nobody told us. West to East says the video...... that’s my evidence.
What about the convoy heading East and the build up on the border?

And your evidence for that is? Simple to prove ..... show us the Satellite images and the videos!
What about the 16000 Troops in Crimea that are on the streets and have annexed Crimea to Russia?

They have the right to be there .... in fact they could invite another 9000 to join them and they are still there legally. After all it is you that says Crimea is still part of Ukraine in which case .... what is the problem?

Why do you only answer questions with more questions? There is never a clear answer from you. :?: :|
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:41 am

Robin Hood wrote:Now we know why after 40 years Cyprus is still no nearer a settlement than it was all those years ago. Have you ever heard of the word ‘compromise’?
Yes Russian Troops are in Ukraine, and they are leading the insurgency
.

Robin Hood,

Cyprus is nowhere near a solution because a power (a superpower relative to Cyprus) has invaded and occupied the island illegally.

This is exactly the same situation in Ukraine. A superpower has invaded and annexed Crimea, and now they are eyeing regions in the East and West of the country. I fear that the Ukraine will find itself in a similar predicament to Cyprus, because once again, a powerful country is carving a far smaller and weaker country and holding it to ransom.

What compromise do you want? Do you want Ukraine to compromise and accept this status quo? In other words might is right as far as Turkey and Russia are concerned.

Robin Hood wrote:Russian troops are in Crimea and by treaty they have a right to be there whether it is still part of Ukraine or not. As for the rest of Ukraine ...... I have asked you for some proof and as you have not come up with any (Even the White House can’t) so I have to assume you are just repeating what you see on BBC or read in the Sydney Herald. No evidence ...... no crime! Simple.


No it's not that simple at all. The Russians have a right to remain in their Sovereign Base Areas but they do not have a right to leave their barracks and annex Crimea. 16,000 Russian Troops have illegally invaded and there are probably a lot more than that since it is likely that Russia will have its covert agents and professional soldiers leading and supplying Russian Insurgents within Ukraine.

Robin Hood wrote:They have no troops to withdraw. There are ‘Brits’ fighting with the rebels in Syria/Iraq, they all carry British passports but they are not there on behest of the British Government. So, the British Government has no control over them. Ukraine is no different ......... there may well be ethnic Russians fighting there but not under the orders of Moscow.


What of the 16,000 troops in Crimea? They have left their bases. They must withdraw and accept the Ukraine's legitimate and sovereign authority.

Robin Hood wrote:Is that so? :o
• UK is a sovereign State and Scotland wants to become independent ..... referendum? .... no problem!


That is an issue for the UK. But, in every other normal state this can't happen. You can't meddle within a State and prop up a particular minority so that they can conduct an uprising and secede from the country. Just about every single country in the world will be in the shit if that was the case.

Robin Hood wrote:• Canada is a sovereign State and Quebec wants to become independent ..... referendum? .... no problem!


Once again, that is a matter for Canada. Obviosly, these countries allow a degree of freedom and tolerance and that seems to work in their benefit because at the end of the day, it also means that the referendum is defeated and Canada and UK will remain intact.

Robin Hood wrote:• Former Yugoslavia was a Sovereign State, Bosnia wanted independence ..... referendum ..... no problem! NATO even bombed Serbia to ensure the result.


Different situation altogether!

Robin Hood wrote:That is a decision for the people of Ukraine as a whole and if the decision by referendum was for a collection of Federal States under a Ukraine flag (Like the EU wants for the member states and of course the US has already) but with each State having autonomy ..... then that is their choice not one to be made for them by the EU/US/NATO. Once a State has autonomy ..... as Scotland does in the UK, then they can decide whether to remain in such a Union of States by referendum and may make other allegiances. Boundaries are drawn up by former colonial powers and/or as a result of wars of conquest. It should be the people, by self determination that have the right to decide their own future.


Actually its not up to the people to dismember a Sovereign State. If that is the case, then Turkey can dismember Russia as well, because there are millions of Turkic Peoples in regions of Russia. Give them a referendum as well and let them be a part of Turkey. Yeh well, I bet it doesn't apply in this case! Right?

Robin Hood wrote:So where is the evidence that there are Russian Troops in Ukraine? Of course the same sort of story that the CIA and FBI have people in Kiev and that ‘Blackwater’ have mercenaries on the ground in Eastern Ukraine has also been claimed but, as I have never seen anything that proves it, I regard that as simply hypothesis and without foundation.


16000 + invading troops in Crimea!

So if Cyprus has a friggin Coup tomorrow, by the same logic, British Troops are able to invade the island from their 2 SBAs because the Military Regime of the RoC is illegitimate and fascist! Yeh right! :roll:

Robin Hood wrote:You mean to tell me they have reversed the orbit of Earth and nobody told us. West to East says the video...... that’s my evidence.


RH,

you're an intelligent guy and you come up with good points, but you must understand that Journalists are not particularly intelligent. Before the crisis, some of them wouldn't even know the Capital of Ukraine, and their photos could be archival. They just take photos of a convoy heading East or West to illustrate their story that Russian forces are moving towards the Ukrainian Border which is actually the case. These forces will travel East and West for a variety of reasons. Perhaps some of the tanks have become unserviceable, maybe they are not as suitable as the newer and more capable ones that have arrived. I can literally tell you a dozen reasons.

Robin Hood wrote:And your evidence for that is? Simple to prove ..... show us the Satellite images and the videos!


The Satellite Imagery from NATO.

Robin Hood wrote:They have the right to be there .... in fact they could invite another 9000 to join them and they are still there legally. After all it is you that says Crimea is still part of Ukraine in which case .... what is the problem?


The problem is they only have the right to remain within their defined areas just like the British Forces have a right to remain within the SBAs in Cyprus.

Robin Hood wrote:Why do you only answer questions with more questions? There is never a clear answer from you. :?: :|


I just have RH. Your logic in my opinion is a very dangerous one for many countries since it makes for very dangerous precedences which can be used to bring suffering and despair to smaller countries that do not have the military capability to defend themselves against countries such as the US, Russia, and Turkey for instance.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:19 am

Paphitis,

Are you not concerned that the US and potentially the EU are meddling in the Ukraine and besides this being a hell on earth for those that live there, the EU is likely to be left holding a big bag full of excrement afterwards?
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:20 am

repulsewarrior wrote:interesting report zan.

20 billion was offered, to buy the network of pipes in Ukraine, surely 100 billion at this point is still a good investment for Russia, with the Crimea tossed in as well...

...money is the root of all of this, money I suppose can solve it.


The last thing the US wants at this stage is Russia owning the gas pipes in Ukraine. They want them but what use are they if Russia cuts the supply, which is very likely to happen by the end of business today.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby zan » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:07 am

repulsewarrior wrote:interesting report zan.

20 billion was offered, to buy the network of pipes in Ukraine, surely 100 billion at this point is still a good investment for Russia, with the Crimea tossed in as well...

...money is the root of all of this, money I suppose can solve it.



Now perhaps you will see that when I said the "water" from Turkey is not about water. Europe needs alternative supplies and Israel/Cyprus/Turkey pipe is one of them and Syria is another. Now lets look at what is actually happening on the ground…….in no particular order!!


1/ European gas nearly got cut off. We all lived that one and its in the report.

2/ Renewable and nuclear power being sold to the public. Cynical regarding past interests

3/ Syria says no to gas pipe…….backed by Russia…..Civil war created by US. Asad says Turkey has a hand in it.

4/ Turkey experiences problems at Gezi Park and the latest attempt at overthrowing Erdogan…..Russian created

5/ Russia moves into Ukraine because to cut off supplies to Europe would cost it dearly so it plays around in Ukraine to make its point

6/ D-Day remembrance gathering makes a perfect stage for this to carry on;

a/ US refuses to meet Russia

b/ UK meets Russia but refuses to shake hands….Ever the mouthpiece of US

c/ Germany and France meet Russia and shake hands

d/ Russia says "When the US stops meddling in Iraq and Syria I will stop in Ukraine"

7/ Water project to Cyprus stops

8/ Talks break down because "RoC' has no incentive ( Makarios' old tactics) and Turkey might now turn back to Russia

9/ Fracking in US that was destined for Europe only yields 4% of what they expected. Europe still under pressure.

10/ Fracking in UK given go ahead

Forget getting information from the Net. Open your ears and eyes. If Turkey and Russia "make up" the Gas pipe will stop all together and the US will move in to destabilise her. The Cyprus problem will go on.

Edit:

Forgot to add, Greece economy collapse then "RoC". You gonna stop Turkish gas pipe says US. Gel bura re!!!
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:41 pm

Gazprom has cut Ukraine's gas and announced on Monday that it is suing Ukraine's state energy company Naftogaz in an international court for the $4.5 billion it owes.

Russia wanted a payment of $1.95 billion for past-due bills by 9 a.m. Kiev time. As the deadline passed Gazprom issued a statement that it would start demanding payment in advance for gas.

“The gas for European consumers is being delivered at full volume and Naftogaz Ukraine is required to transit it,” Gazprom spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov told reporters.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:09 pm

Paphitis:
I was going to reply to each of your points but most of them I have already responded to.

I can only say that you and I view this particular crisis from diametrically opposed view points. I will say again: I think you take too much of what you read/see in the MSM as being fact. Crimea is now de facto a part of the Russian Federation but with compromise on both sides that is not irreversible. As for Russia ‘eyeing’ other regions I think you have got your villains a bit mixed? Look at the history of invasions I posted previously and the likely hood of Russia trying to take another country by force has as much credibility as Lichtenstein doing it. The villain as far as military driven and economic expansionism is concerned, is the USA and their record is abysmal! Russia does not want or need Ukraine they are nothing but a liability anyway but ...... the US and the NATO countries need Ukraine as a link in their ‘ring of threat’ to the Russian Federation simply because The US cannot tolerate any challenge to their hegemony, real or imaginary.

I think common sense will prevail in Ukraine and both sides will eventually have to call a ceasefire and start talking. This of course will not suit the US/EU/NATO alliance as this could lead to a settlement that leaves them outside in the cold when it comes to negotiations and decisions. Discussions I would predict will be between Kiev, and the Separatist’s with maybe Russian and EU arbitrators.

Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation, well at least for now. I am sure that if Kiev assured the Russians over their bases in Sevastopol, they would return Crimea to a Ukrainian Federation of autonomous States with security guarantees for the ethnic Russian population. Kiev destroyed the status quo when they decided to re-engineer the Constitution and aim 'reforms' at the ethnic Russian dominated areas. This is why much of what is happening in Eastern Ukraine is going unreported in the west ..... what is happening is not good copy for The US and its Allies!.

I would also direct you to the second of Maximus’ YouTube links as you seem to think journalists are not too bright. The journalists were running circles round the US spokes person who was trying to lie and bluster her way through clear evidence that the US was behind events in Ukraine. These are the politicians that you seem to believe without question?

You still seem to have no evidence to present that supports your view that, ‘....Russian forces are moving towards the Ukrainian Border.’ As it is the Russian border as well, if I were Putin I would tend to locate the forces protecting my territorial borders where the threat was greatest. ( A bit pointless to locate them outside Moscow?) Providing they do not cross the border .... I see no problem. After all NATO forces are putting up a good demonstration along Russia’s border or do you not consider this a demonstration of a NATO threat and provocation?

You should try seeing the situation more from these independent viewpoints:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-neo-nazis-trained-by-nato-to-commit-atrocities-natos-gladio-army-in-ukraine/5387134

‘The Saker’ (Blog) puts forward an opinion of the likely scenario in Ukraine which is well measured and credible:

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/06/a-scorecard-for-us-lukewarm-war-on.html
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