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Ukraine - The reality of war.

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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:26 pm

The end result is going to be as John Perkins tells it.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:32 pm

Maximus wrote:The end result is going to be as John Perkins tells it.


With Ukraine's Territorial Integrity intact.

It's one thing to have a crisis, but quote another for an external power to meddle and dismember a country similar to what Turkey did to Cyprus.

If Russia wants war then so be it. Let the world take notice who the real instigator is. Let the world unify against this act of aggression. It is Russia interfering in Ukraine and not the other way around.

OR

Russia can:

1) disarm and force its militias to surrender,
and

2) withdraw its forces unconditionally from Ukrainian Territory and back to their barracks

and negotiate which I am sure the Ukrainian authorities are willing to do as well for a peaceful outcome.

The ball is in their court.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:56 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:The end result is going to be as John Perkins tells it.


With Ukraine's Territorial Integrity intact.

It's one thing to have a crisis, but quote another for an external power to meddle and dismember a country similar to what Turkey did to Cyprus.

If Russia wants war then so be it. Let the world take notice who the real instigator is. Let the world unify against this act of aggression. It is Russia interfering in Ukraine and not the other way around.

OR

Russia can:

1) disarm and force its militias to surrender,
and

2) withdraw its forces unconditionally from Ukrainian Territory and back to their barracks

and negotiate which I am sure the Ukrainian authorities are willing to do as well for a peaceful outcome.

The ball is in their court.


This is what happened in Ukraine,

Economic hit men were sent in and they tried to corrupt and bride the pro Russian leader of the country,

This didn't work, so some lapdogs and jackals went in to try and persuade him by stirring up violent protests. This did not work either so they tried to overthrow him. This worked, then a US compliant puppet was installed.

There is no need to go to step three, sending in the military.

I doubt the Ukraine's sovereign integrity will remain intact. The US corporate and military machine will not spend a dime from this new growth they have created from the situation in Ukraine to defend Ukraine's Sovereign integrity. But they will use whats left of Ukraine as a proxy against Russia.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:16 pm

Maximus wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:The end result is going to be as John Perkins tells it.


With Ukraine's Territorial Integrity intact.

It's one thing to have a crisis, but quote another for an external power to meddle and dismember a country similar to what Turkey did to Cyprus.

If Russia wants war then so be it. Let the world take notice who the real instigator is. Let the world unify against this act of aggression. It is Russia interfering in Ukraine and not the other way around.

OR

Russia can:

1) disarm and force its militias to surrender,
and

2) withdraw its forces unconditionally from Ukrainian Territory and back to their barracks

and negotiate which I am sure the Ukrainian authorities are willing to do as well for a peaceful outcome.

The ball is in their court.


This is what happened in Ukraine,

Economic hit men were sent in and they tried to corrupt and bride the pro Russian leader of the country,

This didn't work, so some lapdogs and jackals went in to try and persuade him by stirring up violent protests. This did not work either so they tried to overthrow him. This worked, then a US compliant puppet was installed.

There is no need to go to step three, sending in the military.

I doubt the Ukraine's sovereign integrity will remain intact. The US corporate and military machine will not spend a dime from this new growth they have created from the situation in Ukraine to defend Ukraine's Sovereign integrity. But they will use whats left of Ukraine as a proxy against Russia.


What is happening in Ukraine is Russia challenging the Nation's Territorial Integrity and Sovereignty.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:19 pm

If you say so.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:23 pm

Maximus wrote:If you say so.


What you deny that Ukraine has been dealt a devastating and illegal blow to its sovereignty?
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:24 pm

Paphitis:
The Ukraine Military has an obligation to act in the countries interest, protect its Territorial integrity. If portions of the public are acting in a manner which is detrimental to the country itself and is collaborating with a foreign power, then they are at odds with it, which is a terrible situation. The country is at civil war and people will die and suffer
.
Maybe the US should have thought of this before they initiated the regime change in Kiev? Depose an elected president, overwhelm its Parliament with Nazi/fascists supporters and then put itself at odds with a large portion of the population, all with the blessing of Uncle Sam ...... then it is they that have created a terrible situation.

As I have pointed out several times, the question of a corrupt President was well on the way to a solution. It was when the US supported thugs started imposing their will upon a population, that had never had a say in their promotion into power, that the violence started. The Russian Ukrainians are ‘....a portion of the public’ but as such, do they not have a say in their own destiny when it is made abundantly clear by this US installed regime that they, as ethnic Russians, were going to be the target of this imposed regimes ideological restructuring of Ukraine society? This is why the country is now into a civil war and the blame sits squarely in the White House.
Under such circumstances, there are only 2 options:
1) The Russian led Militias must disarm and surrender,
2) Russian Forces must withdraw from Ukrainian Territory by going back to Russia or entering their Military Bases in Crimea.
If the above does not occur, then Ukraine is at war with Russia itself and the Russian Militias and ANYONE that has involved themselves with those Militias. The situation is that simple
.
So it’s simple is it? So those citizens who were clearly the target of a new regime as they sought to settle old scores have to stop defending themselves, lay down their arms and subject themselves and their families to the pre-stated intensions of the new pro-Nazi/EU/US/NATO ‘humanitarian’ regime?

You mean surrender like ‘The Missing’ did in 1974 in Cyprus? We all know what happened there, they are still trying to find the bodies, and the same would happen in Eastern Ukraine as it did in Cyprus. Or maybe you would apply your previous suggestion and deport them back to Russia and distribute their lands and possessions between the victors and base the Ukraine military there to protect their Territorial Integrity? Sounds a bit familiar! :roll:

I don’t agree with you. There is only one solution and that is the one Putin/Lavrov have been pushing for since it all started to escalate. Everybody put their bloody guns down and start talking because guns will not settle anything they only make matters worse.

You say that Russian forces are in Ukraine? Really? I have seen guys wearing camouflage, riding on tanks/APC's etc carrying various weaponry but as yet, I have not seen any Russian captives paraded on Ukraine TV as evidence (You know the routine name/rank/serial number). But hey, if the’re not Ukraine military I suppose to the uninformed mind, they just have to be Russians? On the other hand, I have however seen lots of irrefutable evidence that the Kiev government supporters, in particular Right Sector thugs have carried out atrocities in many Eastern Ukraine villages, town and cities. But Shhhhh, we don’t mention that it’s not part of the plot ...... unless it can be convincingly be attributed to the Russians, which is why we never see it promulgated or discussed on western TV !

To date there is not one single shred of credible evidence to suggest Russian direct involvement. It is all hypothesis and lies to demonise Russia because the target is not Ukraine, the target IS ULTIMATELY MOTHER RUSSIA!

Again, it is straight out of the US rule book on how to conquer a country without firing a shot ........ which is very simple, create unrest by getting some other Muppet to pull the trigger. Again I say to you, Putin is no fool and has out manoeuvred the US diplomatically, over and over and will do so again. What is going on in Ukraine has no affect on the US and little effect on Russia, the losers will be Ukraine mostly and the EU. (I’m just waiting to say ..... “I told you so! :roll: )

I would like to add to the debate:

Why has Cyprus after 40 years of being ignored by them, suddenly become a ‘strategic partner’ of the USA? What’s in it for the USA because they do nothing without some sort of pay back? :?:

Hypothesis: The US can’t get rid of Assad (thanks to Putin), that means no green light for Israel to eliminate Hezbollah and occupy Lebanon.(a bit more of the land that God gave to them?) So, having failed also to get the TAPI pipeline through Afghanistan and they have yet to find an excuse to invade Iran and put the pipeline through there, so no link for the Israeli/Cypriot gas pipeline to Turkey via Lebanon and Syria ............ the only option is to ‘re-unite’ their strategic partner Cyrus and shove it through Cyprus to Turkey?

If Cyprus can’t resolve the Cyprus problem I suggest the US will and, if the Cypriots won’t play ball, maybe an ELAM coup and the installation of a client regime. I just hope the British Bases have stocked up on ammunition ...... I think they may need it to protect all the Pro-British Cypriots? :wink:
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:33 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:If you say so.


What you deny that Ukraine has been dealt a devastating and illegal blow to its sovereignty?


I do not deny that Ukraine's sovereignty has been violated. That is, on paper and if you take into account that Ukraine gained Crimea and the Russians living there and the Russia Naval bases there, undemocratically in 1954, Ukraine has ended up back where she started 60 years ago. Russia did not shed any blood when she lost Crimea.

I am just telling it how it is, without the none sense.

We are at odds about the degree to which each actor is to blame right?
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:39 pm

Robin Hood wrote:
I don’t agree with you. There is only one solution and that is the one Putin/Lavrov have been pushing for since it all started to escalate. Everybody put their bloody guns down and start talking because guns will not settle anything they only make matters worse.


Once again, I ask you!

Is Russia willing to:

1) Disarm all its militias in Ukraine and surrender,

2) withdraw all its forces from Ukrainian territory. Recognition of its bases in Crimea is not in question and defined by International Treaty, and

3) unconditionally respect and recognise the Territorial Integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine including Crimea including its right to determine its own future within the EU and NATO.

If so, then negotiations can proceed. If Russia can't accept these basic fundamentals, then there can't be a deal.
Last edited by Paphitis on Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:41 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
I don’t agree with you. There is only one solution and that is the one Putin/Lavrov have been pushing for since it all started to escalate. Everybody put their bloody guns down and start talking because guns will not settle anything they only make matters worse.

Once again, I ask you!

Is Russia willing to:

1) Disarm all its militias in Ukraine and surrender,

2) withdraw all its forces from Ukrainian territory. Recognition of its bases in Crimea is not in question and defined by International Treaty, and

3) unconditionally respect and recognise the Territorial Integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine including Crimea including its right to determine its own future within the EU and NATO.

If so, then negotiations can proceed. If Russia can't accept these basic fundamentals, then there can't be a deal.


There will probably not be a deal. The conspirators don't care, they got what they wanted.

So what if there is not a deal?
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