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Ukraine - The reality of war.

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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:47 pm

Maximus wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
I don’t agree with you. There is only one solution and that is the one Putin/Lavrov have been pushing for since it all started to escalate. Everybody put their bloody guns down and start talking because guns will not settle anything they only make matters worse.

Once again, I ask you!

Is Russia willing to:

1) Disarm all its militias in Ukraine and surrender,

2) withdraw all its forces from Ukrainian territory. Recognition of its bases in Crimea is not in question and defined by International Treaty, and

3) unconditionally respect and recognise the Territorial Integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine including Crimea including its right to determine its own future within the EU and NATO.

If so, then negotiations can proceed. If Russia can't accept these basic fundamentals, then there can't be a deal.


There will probably not be a deal. The conspirators don't care, they got what they wanted.

So what if there is not a deal?


This has got nothing to do with conspirators whether real or perceived. Even if they do it is an internal political issue for Ukrainians to solve.

The question here is whether Russia is willing to respect Ukraine, its borders and sovereignty!
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:53 pm

well, is Russia going to get the Pro-Russian leader back and how much of the situation in Ukraine is going to be reversed?
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:45 pm

You want to be careful, Russia will hit and hit hard and it will not be their fault.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:55 pm

Maximus wrote:You want to be careful, Russia will hit and hit hard and it will not be their fault.


they have already hit, now it's up to the Ukrainian military to hit back.
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:00 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:You want to be careful, Russia will hit and hit hard and it will not be their fault.


they have already hit, now it's up to the Ukrainian military to hit back.


You have to reverse the situation,

Is the US willing to do that?
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:53 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
I don’t agree with you. There is only one solution and that is the one Putin/Lavrov have been pushing for since it all started to escalate. Everybody put their bloody guns down and start talking because guns will not settle anything they only make matters worse.


Once again, I ask you!

Is Russia willing to:

1) Disarm all its militias in Ukraine and surrender,

2) withdraw all its forces from Ukrainian territory. Recognition of its bases in Crimea is not in question and defined by International Treaty, and

3) unconditionally respect and recognise the Territorial Integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine including Crimea including its right to determine its own future within the EU and NATO.

If so, then negotiations can proceed. If Russia can't accept these basic fundamentals, then there can't be a deal.


I have replied to that question .... you obviously didn't read it? To repeat:
Paphitis:

As far as Putin's so called solution which you portray as being the only way out, does this involve the return of Crimea and the disarmament of all Russian supported Militias?


It would ensure that Crimea retained the autonomy it had under the previous elected government! From that point on it would be up to the people to decide which way their loyalties lay. This should be done, if this is what the people of Crimea want, under the auspices of the UN and without US/EU/NATO interference. If their security was assured they would not need any more than a police force, so yes the Militias would disarm.

But to do this you first need a truce/ceasefire in Eastern Ukraine and that is only possible if the US gives the word. I do not see how Russia can achieve a truce/ceasefire when they have very little control over the situation. All Russia could do is to invade Ukraine and separate the fighting faction’s ..... and I am sure beyond all doubt that the US would be ‘over-the Moon’ at such a move ........ but for all the wrong reasons. :roll: Putin is not stupid! 8)


You keep insisting that Russian forces are in Ukraine and should leave. Where do you get this information regarding Russian troop deployment ..... or is it a secret? None of the accusers you keep parroting have yet come up with any proof that Putin is telling lies!
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:20 pm

NATO on Saturday releases imagery that confirms Russian tanks are building up near the Ukraine border.

What does this tell us? How credible is this evidence? Would NATO contract this out to DigitalGlobe Inc?

http://www.voanews.com/content/ukrainia ... 36046.html
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:27 pm

At least the argument that the tanks were taken from Ukraine forces and not, as Kiev and the US says, were sent from Russia, is now de-bunked and gives some detailed explanations that say; it is ONLY the Ukraine forces that actually have these tanks in this variation. The evidence provided says that Russia scrapped the last of theirs in 2012 and they never updated their tanks to this version. (WikiPedia)

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/06/ukraine-these-tanks-and-the-state-department-lies-again-.html

If you watch the linked videos in the above article you will see that this ‘tank’ convoy is actually travelling from the west toward the east! Why? Headlights on cars and the number of cars/people says early evening and the sky is that of a of a SETTING sun and is behind them. So they are not en-route from Russia they are going in the opposite direction!

Paphitis: Try getting some relevant information instead of just repeating what the Washington Post says or CNN or BBC ..... because none of the MSM outlets provide a scrap of back-up evidence for their fairy tales ..... they rely on the Fairy God Mother in Kiev! You are being brain washed! :|

Maybe try looking at something like this and don’t forget to look at the graphic photos! Again all the back-up you need to support the fact that what you see and hear in the MSM about events in Ukraine is mainly bulls**t propaganda. It is difficult to tamper with this sort of visual evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJRnI-X8Q

Maximus:

I have just noticed the NATO photographs. Unless you know when they were taken and in which order you could read anything into them? Videos however are basically in real time and are difficult to alter to suit an argument. You can alter the date/time but the content takes a lot of skill to alter and even then, an expert could spot the changes. So I find video more credible than still photo's. Watch the above links they are interesting :o
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Maximus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:56 pm

From looking at those images, you cant tell whether they were taken in Rostovskaya Oblast or not. That image could have been taken in Ohio. The people being shown these images in the western media haven't got a clue or even if they are tanks there at all. They have to just take NATO's word for it.

here is more about the regime change in Ukraine.

FCUK the EU and Bidens "ata boy" visit. :!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv7qy7jot30

Here's government spokesperson Psaki, getting grilled over what the US is cooking up for the Ukraine behind closed doors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE
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Re: Ukraine - The reality of war.

Postby Paphitis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:02 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
I don’t agree with you. There is only one solution and that is the one Putin/Lavrov have been pushing for since it all started to escalate. Everybody put their bloody guns down and start talking because guns will not settle anything they only make matters worse.


Once again, I ask you!

Is Russia willing to:

1) Disarm all its militias in Ukraine and surrender,

2) withdraw all its forces from Ukrainian territory. Recognition of its bases in Crimea is not in question and defined by International Treaty, and

3) unconditionally respect and recognise the Territorial Integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine including Crimea including its right to determine its own future within the EU and NATO.

If so, then negotiations can proceed. If Russia can't accept these basic fundamentals, then there can't be a deal.


I have replied to that question .... you obviously didn't read it? To repeat:
Paphitis:

As far as Putin's so called solution which you portray as being the only way out, does this involve the return of Crimea and the disarmament of all Russian supported Militias?


It would ensure that Crimea retained the autonomy it had under the previous elected government! From that point on it would be up to the people to decide which way their loyalties lay. This should be done, if this is what the people of Crimea want, under the auspices of the UN and without US/EU/NATO interference. If their security was assured they would not need any more than a police force, so yes the Militias would disarm.

But to do this you first need a truce/ceasefire in Eastern Ukraine and that is only possible if the US gives the word. I do not see how Russia can achieve a truce/ceasefire when they have very little control over the situation. All Russia could do is to invade Ukraine and separate the fighting faction’s ..... and I am sure beyond all doubt that the US would be ‘over-the Moon’ at such a move ........ but for all the wrong reasons. :roll: Putin is not stupid! 8)


You keep insisting that Russian forces are in Ukraine and should leave. Where do you get this information regarding Russian troop deployment ..... or is it a secret? None of the accusers you keep parroting have yet come up with any proof that Putin is telling lies!


I read it and the terms are not good enough.

Yes Russian Troops are in Ukraine, and they are leading the insurgency.

They must withdraw and Russian Troops must withdraw either to Russia or back to their Crimean Bases.

The people are not free to determine their future, and this simply can't happen within a Sovereign State.

The borders and Sovereignty of Ukraine must be respected unconditionally.
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