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The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:15 pm

Paphitis wrote:There is no contravention of international law at all. Israel is under no obligation at all to enter into any negotiations with Hezbollah or Iran when they have no interest at all to enter into any negotiations in good faith with Israel or recognize it as a legitimate State.

Israel is under no obligation to return the Golan heights either.

So go mow the grass!


Do you ever actually read anything or do you work simply on a perception ? :roll:

If you are to have any respect for Law it has to apply to everyone, especially International Laws. You could not have a speed limit on the Nicosia-Limassol highway but allow anyone driving a Mercedes to flout it at will or do you disagree?

Israel has flouted International Laws and conventions since its illegal declaration of independence in1948. Because Zionists control the US Senate, they hide behind the US's skirt to empower them. Whether you accept it or not, the influence and power of the US is in decline and they are rapidly losing the remaining respect of many countries mainly because of their declaration that ....... 'we are the exceptional Nation'. i.e. they consider themselves above the Law!

Eventually Israel will have to sit down around the negotiating table. When you are in the dock you do not get to chose the Judge, the witnesses or which law you think you will acknowledge. If you have a dispute within the Law then you use the Law to decide, there is no option just to ignore what you don't like.

Much of the strife, destruction and deaths in the World today stem DIRECTLY from actions by the US/Israel, and often abetted by its allies ........ like the UK and Australia. Yes ..... as you have previously said it is a club but its actions are not representative of the expectations and the will of the people of those nations. :x
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:17 pm

I think you need to go back to step one and address this International law business which seems to only apply to Israel as far as you're concerned.

Yes indeed, if you are to talk with such authority about International law then you would accept that it applies equally to Russia and UN GA Resolution 68/262.

There is no contravention of international law at all. Israel is under no obligation at all to enter into any negotiations with Hezbollah or Iran when they have no interest at all to enter into any negotiations in good faith with Israel or recognize it as a legitimate State.

Israel is under no obligation to return the Golan heights either.

As far as International law is concerned, it seems you are being very selective as to how you apply that.

It does not for instance apply to Crimea and United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ion_68/262

So sure, if Russia starts negotiating for the return of Crimea to Ukraine, Israel might think about it.

So go mow the grass!
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:47 pm

Paphitis:
I think you need to go back to step one and address this International law business which seems to only apply to Israel as far as you're concerned
.
No, I have said very clearly that .......If you are to have any respect for Law it has to apply to everyone, especially International Laws.” That includes also those that self-claim exception. Israel and the United States (and their allies by association) intentionally ignore and breach more International Laws and Conventions than the rest of the World combined. :roll:
Yes indeed, if you are to talk with such authority about International law then you would accept that it applies equally to Russia and UN GA Resolution 68/262.

I agree the Law would apply to Russia and Putin is very clever at remaining within the Law, after all he was trained as a Lawyer I believe?

BTW: A UNGA Resolution is not enforceable in Law only the UNSC has that power ..... although IMO a UNGA resolution should be the superior of the two!

Note what I then posted! :!:

If you have a dispute within the Law then you use the Law to decide, there is no option just to ignore what you don't like.

So .... we have a dispute in Law! If this Wikipedia article is true then Crimea could not be ‘gifted’ to Ukraine without the consent of the people of Crimea and therefore was never a part of Ukraine in the first place. Which maybe explains why it was an autonomous region?

Therefore, the place to decide this is in an impartial Court of Law. This is the process that Israel should also go through to substantiate their entitlement to the Holy Land and that includes Jerusalem. If they can show that in Law the they have a claim to Palestinian Lands, The Golan Heights and to Jerusalem as their undivided capital to the exclusion of all others ...... no problem; let the Law prevail but, being realistic with effectively over 160 countries failing to support their claim and just 9 (really 2) supporting the Israeli claim ..... that is simply not going to happen.


1954 transfer of Crimea

Quote:

“On 27th June 2015 the Office of the Prosecutor General of the Russian Federation accepted the request of the leader of A Just Russia party Sergey Mironov to evaluate legitimacy of 1954 transfer of Crimea and stated that the transfer violated both Constitution of the Russian SFSR (Wikidata) and the Constitution of the Soviet Union. The text of the document signed by Russian Deputy Prosecutor General Sabir Kehlerova Mironov stated "Neither the Constitution of the RSFSR or the USSR Constitution provide powers of the Presidium Supreme Soviet of the USSR for the consideration of the changes in the constitutional legal status of the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, members of the union republics. In view of the above, the decision adopted in 1954 by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviets of the RSFSR and the Soviet Union on the transfer of the Crimean region of the RSFSR to the USSR, did not correspond to the Constitution (Fundamental Law) of the RSFSR and the Constitution (Fundamental Law) of the USSR."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea


It was then decided that Crimea would remain part of Ukraine for administrative purposes presumably as there was no land link between Russia and Crimea it made ‘administrative’ sense.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:33 am

Well there we have it! Pootin is very clever in remaining within the law when annexing Crimea.

OK then! Sure! In other words International law does not apply to Russia because they can make it up as they go along.

In that case, so can Israel.

Therefore, Israel is within the law and does not need to abide by any UN GA resolutions either.

I never asked you Robin Hood about your opinion or wish list. I asked you whether International Law applies to Russia andits illegal annexation of Crimea, an illegal act which has been condemned by the UN GA through resolution 62/282.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be ok for Russia and not so for Israel.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:19 am

Paphitis wrote:Well there we have it! Pootin is very clever in remaining within the law when annexing Crimea.

OK then! Sure! In other words International law does not apply to Russia because they can make it up as they go along.

In that case, so can Israel.

Therefore, Israel is within the law and does not need to abide by any UN GA resolutions either.

I never asked you Robin Hood about your opinion or wish list. I asked you whether International Law applies to Russia andits illegal annexation of Crimea, an illegal act which has been condemned by the UN GA through resolution 62/282.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be ok for Russia and not so for Israel.


That is all complete rubbish! Read what people try to explain to you and try not to wander off into a fantasy realm......

Read, digest and think about what they trying to tell you...... then comment. I am sorry if you have learning difficulties but .... the Law applies to all, I think I made that clear. :roll: If you have a dispute with the Law you use the Law to resolve it ..... I think I made that clear. :roll: I put to you the reason Russia disputes the UNGA resolution :roll:

Now YOU post on what grounds Israel believes it has legal entitlement to take the actions they have ...... including the Golan Heights, which of course was taken by an act of war and those living there were not consulted, which is clearly against Intl.Law, as is stripping the occupied area of its natural resources! If the Syrian population of the Golan were given a vote do you honestly believe they would vote for being part of Israel? Now in Crimea ...... the population voted to be annexed by Russia ..... they were exercising their right under Law to self determination. Do you see the difference? :wink:
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:36 am

It's not rubbish at all. There are UN GA Assembly resolutions regarding the illegalities of Russia Annexing Crimea.

Apparently this is all kosher now because its Russia but Israel is on the wrong side of the law.

You can't have it both ways now.

If you want to make it up as you go along, then Israel has as much right as Russia to thumb its nose against International law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ion_68/262

You can't just be quoting silly propaganda sites about this annexation to claim that Russia has not violated international norms. I can find many fundamentalists right wing Jewish sites that will also claim that Israel hasn't violated International laws.But I at-least respect the forum and other users than to thumb their noses in disgusted right wink fundamentalist Jewish Websites.

But both have UN GA resolutions stating that both Russia and Israel's conduct is in fact illegal.

So how is it going to be? Are you going to continue to make it up as you go along?
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:44 pm

Paphitis wrote:It's not rubbish at all. There are UN GA Assembly resolutions regarding the illegalities of Russia Annexing Crimea.

There are UNGA resolutions condemning both situations. A UNGA resolution is not enforceable as Law it is a expression of opinion. As such neither side has appeared before any legal tribunal to defend their action's. IMO Russia has put forward a reason behind their claims that their actions were not contrary to Law. The Israelis have merely said .... "....we have The Golan, it is ours and we are not going to return it to Syria ............ so get used to it!

In both cases no-one recognises their occupation of the respective pieces of land. But surely even you have to accept that The Golan was foreign soil taken by an act of war; the population were never asked; the Israeli's are helping themselves to water/gas/oil but. on the other hand this does not apply to Russia's 'occupation' of Crimea. In fact Russia is and has spent billions on Crimea since it was annexed.


Apparently this is all kosher now because its Russia but Israel is on the wrong side of the law.

Russia is also on the wrong side of the Law as well but they have at least put forward a reason for their stance and they did not take it by an act of war.

You can't have it both ways now.

I have never said I did '...want it both ways.' The situation in both case should be settled in an independent Court beyond the influencer of interested parties. That seems in my book, to be the right thing to do.

If you want to make it up as you go along, then Israel has as much right as Russia to thumb its nose against International law.

This is not 'made up' at all and that resolution is NOT International Law. Let us say that my information in this case comes from the same sources that Bellingcat uses to make its accusations, which you are content to accept as fact ........ 'open sources' I believe is the term ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ion_68/262

I have no argument with that. It is what it is, a UNGA resolution without enforcement through legal recourse. It is advise of the views of a majority of members of the UN. Nothing more ....... but again I repeat that in my view it should be enforceable THROUGH law after due process.


You can't just be quoting silly propaganda sites about this annexation to claim that Russia has not violated international norms. I can find many fundamentalists right wing Jewish sites that will also claim that Israel hasn't violated International laws. But I at-least respect the forum and other users than to thumb their noses in disgusted right wink fundamentalist Jewish Websites.

The sites I use are not propaganda sites and more and more people are using them as a more reliable source of information than the MSM. Just because they often paint a part of the story that your MSM conveniently leave out, does not make the information untrue.

But both have UN GA resolutions stating that both Russia and Israel's conduct is in fact illegal.

Absolutely ...... but accusation is not proof, in Law you have to prove your case and I think the Russians case for retaining Crimea is infinitely more credible than the Israel's case for taking The Golan ....... in fact they do not appear to have a case other than possession which they regard as nine tenths of the Law ....... and not just with The Golan either ....... as the OP of the thread questions with their claims to Jerusalem also!

So how is it going to be? Are you going to continue to make it up as you go along?

I rest my case, if you can't understand it then there is nothing I can do about it. :roll:

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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:53 pm

Both sides will never have UN Security Council Resolutions because Russia and China perhaps will veto it at every turn. In Israel's case, the USA will veto any resolution. Which means both Israel and Russia are completely immune. Might = Right. Which is why the UN is flawed.

And no I do not agree that the UN GA is an expression of opinion. An expression of opinion it is not. It is an interpretation of the law and each country large and small votes. It is a better snapshot than the 7 member Security Council because every country large and small has their say. The UN GA is like a court of law. The Jury are the UN member States who interpret the UN Charter and the alleged violation and vote accordingly. It is not just an accusation at all, but a violation of the relevant International law or UN Charter.

Yes but only the Security Council is kind of enforceable. But Russia won't vote against itself and the USA won't vote against Israel. So there we have it. let's make it up as we go along. Big fish eat small fish. let's legitimize invasion and conquest.

I believe Cyprus has Security Council resolutions which have yet to be enforced and will in all likelihood never be enforced.

So since we agree to make it up as we go along. Israel has no case to answer for as far as Jerusalem or the Golan Heights are concerned. The Golan Heights have been annexed and are a part of Israel. Russia has annexed Crimea. Can't be ok for one and not for the other.

If you want to be fair, then apply the same standards to Russia with its illegal annexation of Crimea and stop making any excuses!
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:38 pm

Paphitis wrote:Both sides will never have UN Security Council Resolutions because Russia and China perhaps will veto it at every turn. In Israel's case, the USA will veto any resolution. Which means both Israel and Russia are completely immune. Might = Right. Which is why the UN is flawed.

I agree.

And no I do not agree that the UN GA is an expression of opinion. An expression of opinion it is not. It is an interpretation of the law and each country large and small votes. It is a better snapshot than the 7 member Security Council because every country large and small has their say. The UN GA is like a court of law. The Jury are the UN member States who interpret the UN Charter and the alleged violation and vote accordingly. It is not just an accusation at all, but a violation of the relevant International law or UN Charter.

Whatever the UNGA decides it has no powers of enforcement and cannot directly apply sanctions (?) or other punishments. That power surely rests with the UNSC?. It may be based on Law but it has no legal influence only political.

Yes but only the Security Council is kind of enforceable. But Russia won't vote against itself and the USA won't vote against Israel. So there we have it. let's make it up as we go along. Big fish eat small fish. let's legitimize invasion and conquest.

I agree ..... and that is wrong! The UNGA should have the power to judge without any veto's and, in turn instruct the UNSC to enforce ...... the UNSC would become enforcers of the Law and would need no veto power. But would any of the 5 permanent Members of the SC accept that ? :roll:

I believe Cyprus has Security Council resolutions which have yet to be enforced and will in all likelihood never be enforced

Exactly why the UN needs to be reformed but all the time the US holds the power that will not happen. .

So since we agree to make it up as we go along. Israel has no case to answer for as far as Jerusalem or the Golan Heights are concerned. The Golan Heights have been annexed and are a part of Israel. Russia has annexed Crimea. Can't be ok for one and not for the other.

Both have equal cases to answer in Law. It should not just be 'exceptional might' calling the tune and applying unilaterally declared sanctions on its 'enemies', but ignore the same breaches or worse, by its friends and allies. That is grossly unfair and is how the UN operates at the moment. Think of all the illegalities committed by Israel? How many sanctions are there against them? None! The US gives them $3bn a year for weapons for their 'protection' ...... that has to be a joke?

If you want to be fair, then apply the same standards to Russia with its illegal annexation of Crimea and stop making any excuses!

I make no excuses if the law is equally applied but it is not ..... as your posts always demonstrate as 'might is right' Apply the same standards equally to all Nations ...... including the US and its allies (including Australia). Generally, Russia (Putin) is usually pedantic when it comes to compliance with the law ...... you cannot argue that the same applies to the US et al. :roll: :x .

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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:53 pm

OK now we are talking.

So you admit now that Russia is just as guilty as Israel. That's a start.

The only thing I disagree with is that the USA holds the key to the United Nations. That isn't true. I bet they fund the biggest portion along with the EU and certain other Western Countries, but they don't have the key. Some western countries are even mocking the UN. USA is one of them. France and Australia as well are mocking the UN and there are calls to slash funding. Canada has had enough too. Britain and many EU countries as well. We know full well that the UN and the Security Council is flawed and corrupt too. It's not about enforcing International Law. So yes it would be better for the UN GA to be the higher authority by all means, but that will not suit China or Russia because I think you will find we would win many things with the only exception being Israel.

The 7 member UN Security Council members hold the key and Russia and China are a part of that.

It's like the South China Sea Crisis. China is in direct violation of International Law. We know this, you know this, Cyprus knows this and we all friggin know it that China is taking the piss and is basically acting in a manner which violates the rights of virtually every neighboring country (Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia). It is also having an impact on vital trade routes important to Singapore, Australia and NZ.

And yet China will not allow anything through the Security Council. We will get a UN GA resolution no problems at all, and virtually every single country will support our claim except for China and Turkey (do you see a recurring theme here?). Turkey does not agree with UNCLOS. The flies are always attracted to the shit!

So, our ships will traverse the South China Sea and our planes will conduct overflights. We believe it is our right to protect Freedom of navigation through these International Waters and through International Airspace. If China does anything to our aircraft or Ships, they will be committing an act of war, and they have been told as much.

The other issue I do not agree with is that I am certain the USA, France, Britain, Russia and China will not appreciate being the world cop sorting everyone's issues and fighting everyone else's wars for them. So they will not enforce all UN GA resolutions but merely only those that suit them and their interests. Otherwise, they would be involved in about a dozen civil wars in Africa and I don't think they would want to send their soldiers into those conflicts unless there was something to gain such as oil or diamonds. Who is going to pay for all that?

I think you will find that there is no perfect system. I am all for UN GA. USA might be all for it too. The West has the least to lose. But the Russians and Chinese will never allow it because they would lose South China Sea, Crimea, South Ossetia, Syria (war crimes) whilst we can only expect to fall offside with regard to Israel.
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