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The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Kikapu » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:18 pm

Robin Hood wrote:UNGA Vote on Jerusalem

138 for ....... 9 against ..... and 35 abstentions.


The vote against Trumps declaration to recognise Jerusalem as the undivided capital of the Jewish State was carried. So, although this is not enforceable as with a UNSC resolution, it does have political clout. It is obvious that had the US not threatened small States with financial penalties and loss of US aid if they voted against the US stand, many of those that abstained or even voted against the motion, would have voted for it.

Morally, even if not enforceable, it shows the feelings of the majority of UN member states oppose the US/Israeli declaration. So I don't think many embassies will be moving there anytime soon. :roll:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... -assembly/

Kikapu:

I get the feeling, Trump is getting ready to bail the USA out of the UN and let the rest of the world deal with it by paying for it if they want to remain members. Then watch the UN implode in itself without the USA. I think Trump is ready to tell the UN and it's members to "kiss off" also. As I've said, there's more to this than just Trump wanting the USA to recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It was also strange that Israel was the only supporter of the recognition of Kurdistan in their recent referendum. These are not isolated and unconnected events. Something is brewing and I think the demise of the UN is fast approaching. Then it will become, every country for themselves. Then the end of NATO also. Oh shit.


IMO: I think you have a point, the US will eventually walk out on the UN when they realise they can no longer manipulate the UN to serve their (and Israel’s) interests. But I see a different outcome. Whilst the US is the single largest contributor to the UN the loss of their contribution would not be a catastrophe and there is a lot of money wasted within the UN needlessly.

https://blogs-images.forbes.com/niallmccarthy/files/2016/07/20160715_UN.jpg

You will note from the above chart that Russia, China, Australia, Canada and other fairly wealthy countries don’t even make the top ten. The UK pays just over $500m and is 9th, as opposed to the US’s $1,650m, followed by India’s $1,300m.

If the US walks out it will be isolated and Israel along with them. They will say good-bye to their 800+ overseas military installations and facilities as the UN will impose sanctions on the US. They will no longer have political or diplomatic influence on the World Stage but will have to abide by International Laws (and Maritime Law) drawn up by the UN. A bit like the UK’s problems with leaving the EU. The US would effectively become an isolationist and rogue state. It would see most of its foreign influence transferred to Russia/China/India etc. as these countries become increasingly more powerful economically, politically and militarily.

They will either try to go it alone or will become more aggressive as they see their power base collapse. Their control over the Worlds resources will rapidly decline and the retraction of their influence on international commerce ....... the Banking sector in particular will collapse. (that has already started) They cannot threaten other countries because they are no longer top dog and would face resistance from the Nations of the UN backed by increasing Russian and Chinese, military power.

This will require the UN to become much more assertive which they can do without their domination by the US and Israel calling the tune all the time. The UN will no longer just be there to put a face of legitimacy on their claim to be ‘the exceptional and indispensable Nation’. They will have to play by international rules.

I agree with you that NATO will also disintegrate but as a result of that, tensions between the EU countries and Russia will disappear. I keep seeing/reading all about the threats from Russia but never do those that make this accusation ever produce any factual evidence to support them. The same will happen with China as it will learn to live with its neighbours in relative harmony with a powerful UN acting as a mediator in disputes rather than one powerful nation settling disputes to suit its own interests.

So I see the same as you in principal but see that there could be a vastly different outcome. Purely my opinion of course! :roll: :wink:


RH,

You make some good points regarding the situation the USA will find itself should they abandon the UN and NATO. However, I'm not so sure it will be all bad for the USA. Just like when the US/Britain invaded Iraq in 2003 without UN endorsing it, they got other countries to go with them into Iraq in what was called the "Coalition of the willing". The USA upon leaving the UN, will start creating it's own "coalition of the willing" or it's own "UN" if you like and use the present UN headquarters in New York and kick the UN out. Gradually, the USA will get most of the members in the UN to come to it's side and form their own charter to counter the UNs charter now until the UN implodes.

The USA will then be in a position to pick and choose who could be admitted into the new "UN club", much like the EU. One thing the USA has over other countries, is the economic cloud and strong military. I don't think any economic sanctions on the USA by UN will have many takers from it's remaining members nor do I see any danger to any of USA's military bases abroad.. As for NATO, once the US pulls out, the whole structure will also implode, which won't be too bad for Europe, as they will then form the EU Force built within the EU member states. Russia and China will remain independent as they are now. Turkey will be left in the cold once NATO implodes.

USA in the future going to war with any other country will adopt the system they had used in Syria from now on. They will become Proxy wars by using/backing with military hardware one political side/ethnic group in that country against the other side with very little US military personnel. In the end, grab some land with the side they had backed and place their new military base in that country, just like in Syria. Of course, all this will be endorsed by the new USA's new "UN" with it's coalition of the willing members.

Lets just wait and see.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:25 am

Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:I don't think Trump woke up one morning and decided to declare Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. Without getting into to whom Jerusalem belongs to as to who has the more religious rights to it, I believe there is a bigger reasons behind this movement by the US at this time in history. Who in their right mind would want to create such an uproar for nothing? Now that Syrian war is winding down with the US having planted itself there (along with Russia) with the help of the Kurds and no longer has needs for the bases in Turkey or Turkey's permission what it can and cannot do in the region by using those bases, I see many more conflicts starting deliberately in the region, and the Jerusalem issue will be the catalyst for future conflicts. Personally, I see Turkey in the cross-hairs of the USA as starters. All this will have a direct effect in what happens in Cyprus's future. Personally, I think this will benefit Cyprus and us Cypriots in the long run..


The really good thing about the Greek, Cyprus and Israel axis Kikapu is the fact that the Israelis are also proceeding with plans to build a pipeline from Israel, to Cyprus and then Greece and onwards to feed into the EU Gas Grid.

They are going to completely bypass Turkey.

Also, an American company (Noble) seems to have most of the Israeli and Cyprus gas under its lease.

Turkey just got check mated. What can Turkey do? Interfere with American Drilling? :lol:

I think it is only a matter of time now before other countries start moving their consular operations from Tel Aviv to the Capital Jerusalem. Just give it a couple of years and everyone will get use to it and understand that Jerusalem is Israel's Capital city.


Few months ago, I stated on another forum format that Trump may be the best thing happened to Cyprus with it's problems with Turkey, hence I don't think the RoC is going to be in a hurry to make any kind of agreement for a settlement that suits Turkey.

Turkey was willing to build a gas pipeline from Israel to Turkey via the EEZ of Cyprus, but if it were to happened, it was always going to be a secondary pipeline for Israel. The primary will be from Israel via Cyprus to Greece. Egypt might also send it's gas through this pipeline. The way Turkey is treating Israel again, Turks must have been told by the Israelis to "kiss off".

I get the feeling, Trump is getting ready to bail the USA out of the UN and let the rest of the world deal with it by paying for it if they want to remain members. Then watch the UN implode in itself without the USA. I think Trump is ready to tell the UN and it's members to "kiss off" also. As I've said, there's more to this than just Trump wanting the USA to recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It was also strange that Israel was the only supporter of the recognition of Kurdistan in their recent referendum. These are not isolated and unconnected events. Something is brewing and I think the demise of the UN is fast approaching. Then it will become, every country for themselves. Then the end of NATO also. Oh shit, Turkey is fcuked! :wink:


Interesting times ahead Kikapu.

Generally speaking, TRUMP is awesome. I was a bit worried to start off with, but when you take a few steps back and see who is complaining, you come to realise that the people complaining are the people we all want to be complaining. It's the Washington Swamp of elites, the Mass Media, Hollywood Celebrities and Social Justice Warriors and the Thought Police and Political Correctness Brigade.

Trump is one who will make very quick decisions. A President that could make quick decisions regarding the Cyprus issue if someone pisses him off. It's a different style of Presidency that is for sure and it is a style that will appeal to many people, particularly in regional and blue collar circles.

I've got a feeling that the USA (Not just the USA mind you) are very pissed of the UN. They probably will not leave it because that just gifts it to Russia and China. But the USA will make a nuisance of itself and mock the UN and it sure as hell needs to be mocked.

Australia isn't very happy with the UN either and there have been calls to abstain most meetings. In fact, when Rudd was running as UN Secretary General, the whole country opposed it as an irrelevance and the Government refused to support him as a nominee. Trump's thinking isn't exactly new. France is another one has had enough and there are many more I am sure.

They think the UN is a big joke.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:29 am

Cap wrote:
But as for the West Bank, Israel must stop any further colonization and even destroy and relocate any settlers from the area. Israeli actions here are indeed deplorable.


You do realize the West Bank was conquered by Israel during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war from JORDAN, not Palestine.
You do realize the West Bank was JORDANIAN ARAB territory recognized by Britain prior 1967.
Please tell me you understand this Paphitis,


Which is why I said they should stop further colonization and destroy any settlements and perhaps use it as a bargaining chip. :roll:
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:31 am

Robin Hood wrote:UNGA Vote on Jerusalem

138 for ....... 9 against ..... and 35 abstentions. Correction ..... it was 128 for! :oops:


9 against and 35 abstentions is fantastic result.

Slowly slowly the world will see the reality in time.

Also, an irrelevant vote as we all know with Cyprus and Syria. No one pays any attention anymore. The UN hass become a laughing stock. The dirt between our toes.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:05 am

Paphitis wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:UNGA Vote on Jerusalem

138 for ....... 9 against ..... and 35 abstentions. Correction ..... it was 128 for! :oops:


9 against and 35 abstentions is fantastic result.

Slowly slowly the world will see the reality in time.

Also, an irrelevant vote as we all know with Cyprus and Syria. No one pays any attention anymore. The UN hass become a laughing stock. The dirt between our toes.


Yes it was a good result FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD but not for the US and Israel. Those that voted against were USA/Israel .... the other 7 were of no consequence and had to vote with the US ..... OR ELSE..... as Ms Haley pointed out to them. The abstainers were nearly all the US's friends or states under the US's thumb. The 128 are mainly those that would stand up against the US trying to run the World!

Yes I agree .... the UN has become an irrelevance in this World because it has lost the respect of many nations as they see it dominated primarily by the US and the other permanent members, any resolutions they don't like they veto. I would like to see the UNGA with the power to vote in resolutions, not on a 50%+ wins basis but a defined, proportional majority, and the UNSC delegated with the responsibility for getting the resolutions that are carried, enforced and without favour. :wink:

So, I agree ...... The World is beginning to see the reality! :roll:
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:46 pm

Yes they are seeing the reality. The reality is, that without US, Canadian, EU, Australian, British money, the EU is DUST!

The other reality is, that these countries are so fed up with the UN, they want to cut them off because they see the UN as a toothless tiger.

We would be very happy for the UN to go down.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:33 pm

Paphitis wrote:Yes they are seeing the reality. The reality is, that without US, Canadian, EU, Australian, British money, the EU is DUST!

The other reality is, that these countries are so fed up with the UN, they want to cut them off because they see the UN as a toothless tiger.

We would be very happy for the UN to go down.


I think the 128+many of the 35 would like to see the UN separated from US dominance and given far greater powers to impose International Law and UN Resolutions on ALL rogue states, including Israel ..... that means breaking the hold of the US and restructuring the UN not destroying it! :wink:

The re4ality is that the US and all the US allies you list are on the decline when it comes to influence in the World. Other countries are looking East because that is the future ...... the colonial ambitions of the US are falling apart and the only way they think they can get back the top dog position is by threatening others with their military might. That will not work ...... the Russians and the Chinese3 are very much smarter than you seem to think they are. Already the mighty dollar is under threat from the Yuan and the Rouble as well as from the Gold holdings both countries now have and let's face it the petro-dollar concept is history. :D
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:50 pm

There is no US dominance. In fact, the right of veto is the thing that needs to be abolished.

The UN isn't needed in its current format.

America's allies are not in decline either. When you talk about allies, you do realize that this is the majority of nations on the planet, including so many developing countries?

Every country is virtually an American ally minus just a few recalcitrant and pariah states. Even Cyprus and Malta are US allies by default. I know some Cypriots fantasize about a Russian alliance, but the fact is, Cyprus is a closer ally to USA than it is to Russia and it is a very close ally to Israel now bringing it even more closer to USA and others. Doesn't that make you feel good? it's good isn't it? we should be happy! :D

I mean you name all the countries which are not a US ally. It isn't an easy thing to do compared to naming all its allies.

the country that has been in decline is Russia. It was a superpower once as the USSR. It's capabilities now pale into insignificance when compared to the USSR. They are not even a quarter of their former self. So to think they are as a big a threat as what they use to be is insane. Still a threat but not like the USSR was once upon a time.
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Paphitis:
There is no US dominance. In fact, the right of veto is the thing that needs to be abolished.

Of course the US is dominant, especially when it is defending Israel or its own interests. It is, again, alongside Israel, a persistent breaker of international law and conventions and will impose sanctions on others without the agreement or even consultations with other UN Member states, So to say they are not the predominant force in the UN is rather naive.

I agree with the abolition of any country having a veto. I also think all votes in the UNGA should be secret ballot’s, this will avoid countries being exposed to reprisals, or the threat of reprisals by the US as is obvious by the vote which is the subject of this thread. They could vote freely in accordance with their conscience rather than getting their ‘names’ taken by Ms. Haley!
The UN isn't needed in its current format
.
I agree with that 100%.
America's allies are not in decline either. When you talk about allies, you do realize that this is the majority of nations on the planet, including so many developing countries?

Now it gets difficult to define. There are allies/friends/neutral/unfriendly and enemies. My definition:

Allies: Countries that will put their own nationals at risk to fight US wars? Maybe a handful of them. How many of the US coalition ‘Allies’ of the 26(?), in Iraq/Syria actually took part in the action? So not too many actual allies!

Friends: Well a few more that freely offer the US assistance short of laying down the lives of their people unless they were threatened themselves. Mainly NATO countries or loose associates of NATO countries.

Neutral: Those that toe the US line to a degree but don’t get directly involved in any US foreign military escapades and are more likely to be opposed to some of the US allies and their military actions abroad and unilaterally declared US sanctions.

Unfriendly: Those that have grudges against the US because of a previous history/ current actions or hostilities against them commercial or military.

Enemies: Those that are actively engaged in military action against the US and its allies or are threatening to do so and constitute a direct threat to the US. Kim-Jong-Un to name the one. :roll:

Would that be a fair description?
Every country is virtually an American ally minus just a few recalcitrant and pariah states. Even Cyprus and Malta are US allies by default. I know some Cypriots fantasize about a Russian alliance, but the fact is, Cyprus is a closer ally to USA than it is to Russia and it is a very close ally to Israel now bringing it even more closer to USA and others. Doesn't that make you feel good? it's good isn't it? we should be happy!

I think there are very few US allies! If Cyprus is an ally why don’t the US use Cyprus air fields or docking replenish/repair facilities, why do they not put economic sanctions on Turkey? Same with Malta .... they won’t even let the UK use their facilities.

Cyprus is far more commercially allied to Russia and Russian interests than they are to the US. Israel IMO would be an unreliable ally! Once they get what they want they will walk all over Cyprus and with the help of the US and its allies could end up with a military presence on the Island to protect THEIR oil interests!
I mean you name all the countries which are not a US ally. It isn't an easy thing to do compared to naming all its allies.

On the contrary, I think you confuse being an ally with not being an enemy or unfriendly. I would suggest the result of the vote, plus or minus a few would be about the balance. Actual allies the US have very few, actual enemies they have few. So not quite as cut-and-dried as you present it. :wink:
The country that has been in decline is Russia. It was a superpower once as the USSR. It's capabilities now pale into insignificance when compared to the USSR. They are not even a quarter of their former self. So to think they are as a big a threat as what they use to be is insane. Still a threat but not like the USSR was once upon a time.

The USSR had very few friends. Russia is gaining in power both commercially and militarily. Can it match the US? Not yet but as the Russian economy grows, which it is thanks to US sanctions making them diversify the economy away from a reliance on oil/gas, they will grow into Asia and Europe. But the US manufacturing economy is declining and much of the US growth in US commercial power is through the World wide banking and financial system and that IS under threat from both Russia and China and a lot of other countries as an alternative to the current dollar dominated monetary system takes shape.

I think once again, you are over confident and show the tendency to underestimate the capability of the opposition. Most of those countries you regard as allies will desert the US when the going gets rough and they are asked to make sacrifices to make ‘America great again’ or by being expected to ‘put America first’ ! :roll:
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Re: The US recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:07 am

yeh sure its gaining friends. Good luck to them.

But quite clearly, it isn't working very well because we all have one thing in common.

WE ALL know, that we can't trust Pootin's Russia for anything, that their signature isn't worth the toilet paper its written on, and because we are all weary of The Russian Bear.

Clearly, Russia has a long way to go, and America is just as influential and powerful as it ever was.

What you saw the last 8 years was a stupid Presidency (Obama) who caused havoc from inaction in Syria and against North Korea. Those days are long gone now!

So my suggestion to Pootin, is for him to pipe down and lower his head below the poppies lest we chop it off. Pootin has heeded the warning signs, because he is treading cautiously with regard to North Korea knowing full well the West is willing to obliterate this Pariah with any false move, and also with the South China Sea they are giving us a very wide berth as they should. We have Trump at the helm now, and Pootin knows full well that Trump is as egotistical and as arrogant as he is, and that he will not back down in a game of chicken.

Trump is the worse thing that has happened to Pootin. I bet they are all wishing they had known quantity Hillary Clinton now, because Trump is a wild card.

Let us know when Pootin has more than 10 friends that are worth their pinch of salt. :lol:
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