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The risks to children of British public schools.

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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:23 am

RichardB wrote:I don't know the system now but 52 years ago, (when in the final year of primary school, aged 11. We took what was known as the 11plus exam, In my area this dictated which school you move on to.
The children with the very top marks were offered a place on a bursary to the then fee paying high school (only 5 pupils a year obtained this) , the next 5%, if my memory serves me correct went to the Grammar school, including myself, and the others wnt to the secondary modern and the results of their 11plus exam dictated which form they would be in
I realise this may not apply today and may not have a great relevance to the topic, but just to point out in my day you could say we did have a kind of iq test


They do this in Australia as well and the very top students are offered scholarships with the very best private schools like Geelong who try to whip up the brightest students.

They offer all kinds of inducements to attract these students.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:39 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
show me the exact line where the Geelong prospectus or any other school (including the one of your own children) says they do any IQ tests on candidate students!


They do English Language Tests for international students.

They also do test student applicants. I have never found that on their website and nor have I found such on the website of the school my children currently attend. They certainly tell you when you show interest and apply. And there is no guarantee of getting in. I registered my children before they were born and I paid a lot of money to register them and I did the same for another 3 similar schools just in case.

It's not the case that you just rock up, stump up a heap of cash and your kids are in. It doesn't work that way. The school was very serious about its image to the outside world, its history, and ethos and they wanted to make sure we also fit in with them. Also it is renowned for its sports, music and drama. Walking on the grounds and through all the historical buildings was like walking into a different world.

But we had to jump through hoops to get them there - parents and children as well.

Which is why I started early on training my children and gave them a head start with another private school run by the Orthodox Archdiocese which btw was a very impressive school.

This Orthodox School was 3rd tier but it was extremely impressive and well run. Standards were also high, parents were great as well and the parish priest there was a great bloke and a friend.

It felt so cosy I almost considered leaving the children in this school because the kids were happy and it offered great value for money as well.

It was really good to see the Greek Community and Orthodox Archdiocese offer such high standards in professionalism.

But I had bigger ambitions and selected what I characterize as a Tier 1 and the reason why I targeted that school is because its reputation was notorious with excellence and it was old and very established.

It wasn't easy to get in. First, its a Church of England School run by the same organization as Geelong Grammer. Church of England parishioners are the first to be considered, and all the remaining spots are divvied up and hotly contested. We were advantaged because we were Orthodox and the Anglicans and Orthodox in Australia are pretty close, and closer than the Catholics believe it or not.

We had to write in, go and have meetings with the school, they had to meet the children, chat with them and they had to meet all of us at our home and they also tested the children with particular IQ games and tests to assess their level. My children were assessed at Level 11 on a scale between 1 to 30. The standard is that the children start on level 1 when they start school and achieve level 30 after year 3. Don't forget the kids were 5 years old. They took us on a couple school tours and explained in a very methodical manner everything about their establishment. The school grounds are an amazing and tranquil place.

They were also impressed how we enrolled our children into the Orthodox School which they knew all about. They asked us why we didn't want to leave the children there so we told them that the school was excellent but we wanted our children to attend this school. We provided character references from the Orthodox Parish Priest and Archdiocese and they really took that very seriously as I felt it carried substantial weight.

It was never a case of sign here and off you go.

If we were delinquent parents and a dysfunctional family then we would obviously not be let in. They have a very good reputation and the Alumni of the school is quite amazing. I can't tell you who the old scholars were because you can identify the school with a google search but let me tell you it's up there towards the Geelongs and it is also a boarding school with people coming from all over to attend this school and everyone is very happy there.

Teachers are great too.

But in all honesty, parents who send their children to a tier 3 like the Orthodox Run school or another catholic School are also getting very good results.

It's the Government that is obligated to take all students. these guys do not take all students who apply.

But they do offer places to disadvantaged students as well and indigenous persons which is also great. They are after all a Christian School and are obligated by their tenets to help people.

Let's say I moved to Geelong. My children could more easily transfer to Geelong but those fees are incredible. Nearly double... :o
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:19 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
show me the exact line where the Geelong prospectus or any other school (including the one of your own children) says they do any IQ tests on candidate students!


They do English Language Tests for international students.

They also do test student applicants. I have never found that on their website and nor have I found such on the website of the school my children currently attend. They certainly tell you when you show interest and apply. And there is no guarantee of getting in. I registered my children before they were born and I paid a lot of money to register them and I did the same for another 3 similar schools just in case.
......

We had to write in, go and have meetings with the school, they had to meet the children, chat with them and they had to meet all of us at our home and they also tested the children with particular IQ games and tests to assess their level. My children were assessed at Level 11 on a scale between 1 to 30. The standard is that the children start on level 1 when they start school and achieve level 30 after year 3. Don't forget the kids were 5 years old. They took us on a couple school tours and explained in a very methodical manner everything about their establishment. The school grounds are an amazing and tranquil place.
.............



You didn't need to tell me they do English proficiency tests to Foreign students, I saw that in their prospectus, and it's common sense not only for private schools but for the public ones as well.

I will take your word that they do IQ tests to 5-6 year olds just like they did on your children. It looks to me the procedure is such to exclude children who are dumb anyway, however is not such to pick up the top brains. Still however what "material" gets in is naturally average material or maybe a bit above average.
This proves my initial argument that you can't output top academic performance from average "material" without excessive and repetitive pressure. It is simply impossible. You should look at the statistics of those schools all over Europe- they do output A- on the average!

Of course you advocate the various other benefits like exposure to all sorts of sports, music, talent opportunities, future social network etc. They are all good, no question about it, and could benefit a DAY student a lot. However there's a disproportionate risk plus cost to the personality and psychological stability of a full BOARDING student which I oppose with absolute certainty. It is also true that often those rich parents who enroll their children in boarding schools often do it to get rid of them, and almost exclusively do it when they are about to divorce which by itself is another blow to the personality and future stability of a person.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:37 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
show me the exact line where the Geelong prospectus or any other school (including the one of your own children) says they do any IQ tests on candidate students!


They do English Language Tests for international students.

They also do test student applicants. I have never found that on their website and nor have I found such on the website of the school my children currently attend. They certainly tell you when you show interest and apply. And there is no guarantee of getting in. I registered my children before they were born and I paid a lot of money to register them and I did the same for another 3 similar schools just in case.
......

We had to write in, go and have meetings with the school, they had to meet the children, chat with them and they had to meet all of us at our home and they also tested the children with particular IQ games and tests to assess their level. My children were assessed at Level 11 on a scale between 1 to 30. The standard is that the children start on level 1 when they start school and achieve level 30 after year 3. Don't forget the kids were 5 years old. They took us on a couple school tours and explained in a very methodical manner everything about their establishment. The school grounds are an amazing and tranquil place.
.............



You didn't need to tell me they do English proficiency tests to Foreign students, I saw that in their prospectus, and it's common sense not only for private schools but for the public ones as well.

I will take your word that they do IQ tests to 5-6 year olds just like they did on your children. It looks to me the procedure is such to exclude children who are dumb anyway, however is not such to pick up the top brains. Still however what "material" gets in is naturally average material or maybe a bit above average.
This proves my initial argument that you can't output top academic performance from average "material" without excessive and repetitive pressure. It is simply impossible. You should look at the statistics of those schools all over Europe- they do output A- on the average!

Of course you advocate the various other benefits like exposure to all sorts of sports, music, talent opportunities, future social network etc. They are all good, no question about it, and could benefit a DAY student a lot. However there's a disproportionate risk plus cost to the personality and psychological stability of a full BOARDING student which I oppose with absolute certainty. It is also true that often those rich parents who enroll their children in boarding schools often do it to get rid of them, and almost exclusively do it when they are about to divorce which by itself is another blow to the personality and future stability of a person.


I think the procedure is to exclude students who are incompatible.

I don't think you can actually write off a poor child of 5 years old as being dumb. Some kids are slow starters and then accelerate later, other may be try hards and so on.

The biggest thing that excludes people is cost.

My understanding is that they are perfectly happy with average students. They just need to be compatible with the school and be from good functioning families. If the parents are drunk or drug addicted sloths, it probably won't go to well and poor kids to have parents like that but sadly there are many kids that come from terrible family environments like that.

In addition, you can have some kids that are not very good at English and Numeracy but they are musically talented or they have talents in other areas. they could be more creative than scientific and mathematical and these schools have something for everyone. If a kid has a knack for music, then they push that child towards those majors later on and they nurture them into Music and Arts.

Just because a kid isn't that good at literacy or numeracy doesn't actually mean they are dumb.

The advantage of these private schools as well is that they have better support and options for the kids.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:50 pm

Paphitis wrote:I think the procedure is to exclude students who are incompatible.

I don't think you can actually write off a poor child of 5 years old as being dumb. Some kids are slow starters and then accelerate later, other may be try hards and so on.

The biggest thing that excludes people is cost.

My understanding is that they are perfectly happy with average students. They just need to be compatible with the school and be from good functioning families. If the parents are drunk or drug addicted sloths, it probably won't go to well and poor kids to have parents like that but sadly there are many kids that come from terrible family environments like that.

In addition, you can have some kids that are not very good at English and Numeracy but they are musically talented or they have talents in other areas. they could be more creative than scientific and mathematical and these schools have something for everyone. If a kid has a knack for music, then they push that child towards those majors later on and they nurture them into Music and Arts.

Just because a kid isn't that good at literacy or numeracy doesn't actually mean they are dumb.

The advantage of these private schools as well is that they have better support and options for the kids.


The question is at what risk and what cost to the persona of a boarding student.
You keep insisting it's negligible to non existing! :shock:
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:54 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:I think the procedure is to exclude students who are incompatible.

I don't think you can actually write off a poor child of 5 years old as being dumb. Some kids are slow starters and then accelerate later, other may be try hards and so on.

The biggest thing that excludes people is cost.

My understanding is that they are perfectly happy with average students. They just need to be compatible with the school and be from good functioning families. If the parents are drunk or drug addicted sloths, it probably won't go to well and poor kids to have parents like that but sadly there are many kids that come from terrible family environments like that.

In addition, you can have some kids that are not very good at English and Numeracy but they are musically talented or they have talents in other areas. they could be more creative than scientific and mathematical and these schools have something for everyone. If a kid has a knack for music, then they push that child towards those majors later on and they nurture them into Music and Arts.

Just because a kid isn't that good at literacy or numeracy doesn't actually mean they are dumb.

The advantage of these private schools as well is that they have better support and options for the kids.


The question is at what risk and what cost to the persona of a boarding student.
You keep insisting it's negligible to non existing! :shock:


In countries like Australia and USA, boarding schools are required and necessary.

farmers, station owners and so on are wealthy families and they are remote and these families are usually the ones that send their kids to boarding schools.

They got no choice.

usually these farmers and station owners send their kids to high end boarding schools.

There is no cost, the kids get off the station and live in the big smoke in a real good school and they have the time of their lives. Attending these schools is a lot of fun.

And their parents come to the city regularly as well. The kids also go home for holidays.

These Stations sometimes cover areas about a third the size of Cyprus. And they hold up to 30,000 cattle or more.

No one else uses boarding schools except maybe some country people who can afford to send their kids to these schools.

the kids are very well looked after.

Prince Charles went to boarding school as well at Geelong Grammar and that is the next King.

Children who attend these schools are VERY LUCKY and privileged to be able to. I told you before, these are institutions, not schools. This is where the future high flyers go.

These schools open a lot of doors in life.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:30 pm

Paphitis wrote:I think the procedure is to exclude students who are incompatible.


Selection is an ongoing issue and debate in education but selection is not a commonality of just British public school based schools. All private schools are selective. Some state schools are selective and some are not and some are to degrees. The issues around selection are a 'thing' but they are not the 'thing' I am talking about.

The earlier listI linked to of top rated Australian schools, which includes 'government schools' and 'non government' schools is exclusively selective as far as the top eleven places go, and probably far beyond that, I have not checked. It is not exclusively 'non government' or 'government'. Selection is a commonality that crosses private/state divides. The issues around selection apply to 'top' schools like the state school Perth Modern School and manifest in exactly the same way selection works in private schools. As this article clearly shows. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-09/ ... e/11288146

Data published by the Australian Curriculum Assessment and Reporting Authority (ACARA) shows just 2 per cent of the school's students are regarded as socio-educationally disadvantaged. The figures also show Perth Modern's students are the second-most advantaged in the country — behind only Sydney Grammar School, which charges $37,000 in annual tuition fees.


This is selection at work. This commonality goes across large swaths of reasons Paphitis gives in terms of the benefits of private , non government schools, from Geelong down.

Paphitis' position is my dads position. The 'Cypriot' position as I am going to call it. Schools like Perth Modern give the same protection from left wing nonsense that he likes, discipline he likes, protection from drugs and 'bad types', all the exclusivity he likes. And you do not have to stump up 30-40 k AUD. That makes it more exclusive than private counterparts in many ways. More selective, more exclusive. It is also why of the top 11 schools in the list 10 are entirely selective government schools and only one is non government selective. The ones that do not have to charge get 'first pick' ahead of the than the ones that do charge. They are higher on list.

Selection is a 'thing'. An ongoing debate. I could talk for ever about it vs partial selection vs total selection. In this thread I am looking for a different 'thing' to 'selection'. The thing I am looking. the essence of it,is exclusive to schools that follow 'the traditional British public school system. Like boarding does. But the commonality is greater than just 'boarding'. The cricket ball incident is related to 1800 and 1900 notions as much as boarding tradition is. This is part of the 'thing' I am looking for and is not 'boarding'. I am looking for the unnecessarily brutal parts of that tradition by 21 century standards not 1900. Because they exist and because they are unnecessarily brutal. This 'thing' is nothing to do with things like selection that cross both types of schools. This is not the politics of envy. You can get all the benefits of 'exclusivity' in government schools. In the right ones. In the selective ones. This is about identifying the unnecessary brutal elements of selective fee schools. So they can be stopped.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:44 pm

Paphitis wrote:In countries like Australia and USA, boarding schools are required and necessary.


The population density in these places creates a greater need for 'boarding' than the UK. Boarding in the British public school tradition is not the only possible solution to these physical realities. If Perth Modern were to make it a selection requirement that 50 % of intake must live locally and have a home and means to suitably and safely house another child during term time, then they would have no problem in filling such places and would then have 50% of places available for 'remote' students.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:47 pm

Children in care given boarding school places are three times as likely to go to university

Children in care who are given boarding school places are three times more likely to go to university, the first major study has shown.

Sending vulnerable youngsters to boarding schools also makes them six times more likely to achieve at least two A-levels, according to a new report by the Royal National Children’s SpringBoard Foundation.

The charity works with local authorities to place disadvantaged children in some of the country's most prestigious institutions including Eton College, Harrow School, Radley College and Wellington College.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:54 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:Children in care given boarding school places are three times as likely to go to university

Children in care who are given boarding school places are three times more likely to go to university, the first major study has shown.

Sending vulnerable youngsters to boarding schools also makes them six times more likely to achieve at least two A-levels, according to a new report by the Royal National Children’s SpringBoard Foundation.

The charity works with local authorities to place disadvantaged children in some of the country's most prestigious institutions including Eton College, Harrow School, Radley College and Wellington College.


How many children in public school boarding are from care homes ? This is about unnecessary risk. If the background you are coming from is already high risk, higher risk than boarding then the necessity in such rare cases is entirely different. I am talking about the 99.99% of children in boarding schools today who do not come from such extreme backgrounds. This point is made at the end of the 30 year old documentary on boarding I linked to before by the way, though you probably did not watch it.
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