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Ukrainian Issue

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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Paphitis » Fri May 13, 2022 2:35 am

Now I am very sad that this war was started by Russia causing great suffering and sacrifice upon Ukrainian people.

The world now is very much behind and with Ukraine.

But we can all take solace that at this point it seems that justice is occurring against Russian Aggression and War Crimes.

That is the good thing about this. That Russia is being grinded down gradually and that the Ukrainians are defending their country and won't concede.

What Ukraine has achieved so far has literally saved the planet from many wars and Trillions worth of damages.

Ukraine has probably also saved Cyprus...and many more other countries like Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and also Taiwan.

For the first time, a Tyrant is up against the wall where he belongs.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Lordo » Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am

It seems the whole world has turned upside down.

Republican senator Rand Paul blocks $40bn aid package to Ukraine despite GOP move to pass it


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/republican-senator-rand-paul-blocks-40bn-aid-package-to-ukraine-despite-gop-move-to-pass-it/ar-AAXcXsY?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=2f679665a6124810996371e6c17b60e6
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Londonrake » Fri May 13, 2022 9:33 am

Lordo wrote:Besides all that. Imagine tomorrow Cuba or Mexico decided to invite Russia to install nuclear weapons on their soil. Is Amecia going to adhere to their sovereignty rights?

Like fuck they she will. The problem with LR is he has been smelling bullshit so long, he does not know what air smells like.


Ukraine hasn’t invited anybody to install nuclear missiles in their country. In fact, after the demise of the USSR they ended up with quite a lot. Given up, in return for solemn ( :lol: ) guarantees of their sovereignty. Not least from - wait for it - Russia.

Ukraine isn’t even a NATO member and with unanimity from all 30 nations required wasn’t likely to become one in much of a hurry. If ever. Unlike it seems soon to be Finland and Sweden. How’s that for a Putin miscalculation? Epic!

The only people who’ve been Sabre rattling about the use of nuclear weapons, and that since 24 Feb, is Mr Putin and Co.

It seems to me that the Russian supporters, as a matter of course, regard anything which differs from their views as “bullshit” And, if you want to exchange insults I can do that. Quid pro quo. Although, I think it demeans the discussion, the perpetrators ending up just broadcasting their views with the occasional pat on the back post from the like minded. That would be a great pity.

Just to point out some salient facts here (again). Russia has invaded a neighbouring country. There they’ve killed thousands of civilians and destroyed population centers. Mostly from a distance, using artillery, rockets/missiles and bombs. They’ve routinely been either inferring or overtly threatening the use of nuclear weapons. There’s absolutely no justification for any of those acts and how people outside of Russia can piously defend any of it - with a straight face - beggars belief.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Kikapu » Fri May 13, 2022 10:05 am

Londonrake wrote:
Ukraine isn’t even a NATO member and with unanimity from all 30 nations required wasn’t likely to become one in much of a hurry. If ever. Unlike it seems soon to be Finland and Sweden. How’s that for a Putin miscalculation? Epic!


I don’t think Sweden will join NATO, not especially should Finland joins since Finland would become a buffer zone between Russia and Sweden. Personally, I don’t even think Finland will join NATO either as there has been no threat made at them by Russia up to their so called announcement to join NATO. All the news about Sweden and Finland joining, I think is to put pressure on Putin in the hopes he will withdraw from Ukraine. Call it a bluff by the west if you like, but I can’t see Russia giving back anything they have gotten thus far as I think their objective is not finished until the Odessa regions are also taken to shut Ukraine from the Black Sea. Ukraine’s access to the Black Sea was always going to be a big issue for Russia should it joined NATO first. Once Russia secures the coastal areas of Ukraine on the Black Sea, I don’t think Russia would care any longer if Ukraine were to join NATO after the fact.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Paphitis » Fri May 13, 2022 1:18 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Londonrake wrote:
Ukraine isn’t even a NATO member and with unanimity from all 30 nations required wasn’t likely to become one in much of a hurry. If ever. Unlike it seems soon to be Finland and Sweden. How’s that for a Putin miscalculation? Epic!


I don’t think Sweden will join NATO, not especially should Finland joins since Finland would become a buffer zone between Russia and Sweden. Personally, I don’t even think Finland will join NATO either as there has been no threat made at them by Russia up to their so called announcement to join NATO. All the news about Sweden and Finland joining, I think is to put pressure on Putin in the hopes he will withdraw from Ukraine. Call it a bluff by the west if you like, but I can’t see Russia giving back anything they have gotten thus far as I think their objective is not finished until the Odessa regions are also taken to shut Ukraine from the Black Sea. Ukraine’s access to the Black Sea was always going to be a big issue for Russia should it joined NATO first. Once Russia secures the coastal areas of Ukraine on the Black Sea, I don’t think Russia would care any longer if Ukraine were to join NATO after the fact.


Sweden and Finland would be crazy now if they don't join NATO.

Russia's credibility went down the drain when they invaded Ukraine.

Ukraine surrendered its nuclear arsenal to Russia, so there was never any intention on Ukraine's part to pose any security risk to Russia at all. All they wanted was guarantees over their sovereignty in return.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Maximus » Fri May 13, 2022 5:26 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Londonrake wrote:
Ukraine isn’t even a NATO member and with unanimity from all 30 nations required wasn’t likely to become one in much of a hurry. If ever. Unlike it seems soon to be Finland and Sweden. How’s that for a Putin miscalculation? Epic!


I don’t think Sweden will join NATO, not especially should Finland joins since Finland would become a buffer zone between Russia and Sweden. Personally, I don’t even think Finland will join NATO either as there has been no threat made at them by Russia up to their so called announcement to join NATO. All the news about Sweden and Finland joining, I think is to put pressure on Putin in the hopes he will withdraw from Ukraine. Call it a bluff by the west if you like, but I can’t see Russia giving back anything they have gotten thus far as I think their objective is not finished until the Odessa regions are also taken to shut Ukraine from the Black Sea. Ukraine’s access to the Black Sea was always going to be a big issue for Russia should it joined NATO first. Once Russia secures the coastal areas of Ukraine on the Black Sea, I don’t think Russia would care any longer if Ukraine were to join NATO after the fact.


Sweden and Finland would be crazy now if they don't join NATO.

Russia's credibility went down the drain when they invaded Ukraine.

Ukraine surrendered its nuclear arsenal to Russia, so there was never any intention on Ukraine's part to pose any security risk to Russia at all. All they wanted was guarantees over their sovereignty in return.


All NATO members must unanimously agree for any country to join the military alliance.

Turkey's Erdogan is going to veto them because he thinks Finland and Sweden is “home to many terrorist organisations,”. Yes, you read that correctly!

https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-nato/erdog ... ining-nato

At least that is his reason, as ridiculous as that sounds. So who are these terrorist organisations he is referring to or is it just a disguise for a duplicitous agenda?

He is insisting that NATO made a mistake by admitting Greece in to the alliance and he doesnt want to make a similar mistake with Finland and Sweden.

Some might say, endorgan is being wise for once but he severely lacks in that department. Others might think he is being something else. I will leave that to your imagination.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Londonrake » Fri May 13, 2022 6:21 pm

Maximus wrote:All NATO members must unanimously agree for any country to join the military alliance.

Turkey's Erdogan is going to veto them because he thinks Finland and Sweden is “home to many terrorist organisations,”. Yes, you read that correctly!

https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-nato/erdog ... ining-nato

At least that is his reason, as ridiculous as that sounds. So who are these terrorist organisations he is referring to or is it just a disguise for a duplicitous agenda?

He is insisting that NATO made a mistake by admitting Greece in to the alliance and he doesnt want to make a similar mistake with Finland and Sweden.

Some might say, endorgan is being wise for once but he severely lacks in that department. Others might think he is being something else. I will leave that to your imagination.


That's interesting and you may of course be right.

It does though just go to underline what I said previously. Ukraine membership of NATO seems to be a an obvious given among the Russian invasion supporters in here. That was by no means the case though. Both Germany and France had severe objections to such a move. They vetoed its membership application in 2008 and there's no evidence to support their view having changed.

Putin's talk of an imminent threat of invasion from NATO on May 9th, like his using it as an excuse for his "special military operation" was a lie and a fabrication of farcical proportions.

Let's not allow that to interfere with those who cheer every day's good news of Russians killing Ukrainians and destroying their country in here though.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Kikapu » Fri May 13, 2022 6:50 pm

Maximus wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Londonrake wrote:
Ukraine isn’t even a NATO member and with unanimity from all 30 nations required wasn’t likely to become one in much of a hurry. If ever. Unlike it seems soon to be Finland and Sweden. How’s that for a Putin miscalculation? Epic!


I don’t think Sweden will join NATO, not especially should Finland joins since Finland would become a buffer zone between Russia and Sweden. Personally, I don’t even think Finland will join NATO either as there has been no threat made at them by Russia up to their so called announcement to join NATO. All the news about Sweden and Finland joining, I think is to put pressure on Putin in the hopes he will withdraw from Ukraine. Call it a bluff by the west if you like, but I can’t see Russia giving back anything they have gotten thus far as I think their objective is not finished until the Odessa regions are also taken to shut Ukraine from the Black Sea. Ukraine’s access to the Black Sea was always going to be a big issue for Russia should it joined NATO first. Once Russia secures the coastal areas of Ukraine on the Black Sea, I don’t think Russia would care any longer if Ukraine were to join NATO after the fact.


Sweden and Finland would be crazy now if they don't join NATO.

Russia's credibility went down the drain when they invaded Ukraine.

Ukraine surrendered its nuclear arsenal to Russia, so there was never any intention on Ukraine's part to pose any security risk to Russia at all. All they wanted was guarantees over their sovereignty in return.


All NATO members must unanimously agree for any country to join the military alliance.

Turkey's Erdogan is going to veto them because he thinks Finland and Sweden is “home to many terrorist organisations,”. Yes, you read that correctly!

https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-nato/erdog ... ining-nato

At least that is his reason, as ridiculous as that sounds. So who are these terrorist organisations he is referring to or is it just a disguise for a duplicitous agenda?

He is insisting that NATO made a mistake by admitting Greece in to the alliance and he doesnt want to make a similar mistake with Finland and Sweden.

Some might say, endorgan is being wise for once but he severely lacks in that department. Others might think he is being something else. I will leave that to your imagination.


Erdogan is on a “shakedown” mission to get as much concessions he can from the EU and the US to give his vote for Sweden and Finland to join NATO.

On the other hand, Putin might be squeezing him by the balls not to or else. :wink:
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Londonrake » Fri May 13, 2022 7:19 pm

Just my personal view but I think they will join and Mr Erdogan's just grandstanding - as you say - perhaps looking for some sort of "concessions".

What would that mean for Russia though? Given Putin's supposed motivation for invading Ukraine on the untenable basis of a threat from its possible - eventually - joining NATO.

It would mean that the Baltic would become a NATO lake (well, just like the Med really). No Russian ship could move in it without immediately finding itself under surveillance and in potentially hostile waters.

St Petersburg would be about 200 miles from NATO territory.

Russia's main (Northern) fleet facility at Severomorsk would be within minutes of NATO air attacks. It's ships, including virtually all of Russia's submarine fleet, and a lot of its long range bombers would be within NATO surveillance/attack range from the Kola peninsular westwards.

And this is the result of Putin wanting to stop the expansion of NATO by attacking Ukraine? Points for fucking things up in that respect?

So much for the great and oft vaunted "master strategist". One of the joys of Dictatorship.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Maximus » Fri May 13, 2022 7:39 pm

Erdogan aiming for political concessions from the west, to approve of Finland's and Sweden's accession to NATO has some merit.

I was reading the other day that the EU are basically trying to strong-arm him in to pointing Turkey's guns Russia's way. In exchange for food security and agricultural trade with the EU. Basically, if Turkey isnt toeing the line, they are not going to get any agricultural trade with the EU.

Basically, Turkey has a food security threat looming. That is why erdog was running around to mend ties with certain actors in the region recently. His people are starving and suffering and all he has to offer them is "helicopter tea" and some humble pie.
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